ANE Digest Thursday, December 11 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 335 Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 01:07:48 EST From: Tokapu Subject: ane River beds and garden beds Friends, I am wondering if all these names and images of rivers and the garden are not even more ancient memories of the serious climatic changes occurring in the African, Arabian and Mediterranean areas prior to the rise of the "high civilizations." The last "mini Ice Age" ended approximately 10,000 b.c., and until that time, the Sahara was just a little dry spot, and there was a considerable river system draining all the regions under question. Just as Lake Chad is drying up so precipitously in our lifetime, the people who lived in these regions watched the climate change dramatically in a matter of a lifetime or two. (Not from geological changes like earth quake or continental drift.) The reduction of their rich pasture lands to sand dunes is as "world altering" an experience as any peoples could go through. And as time went on, the desert expanded, and took more land and dried up more rivers, leaving wadis behind. Wouldn?t the memory of that linger in legend and story for a long, long time? Could that be the "garden" we were thrown out of? Ramona Wheeler http://members.aol.com/tokapu/walkle01.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 03:02:52 -0500 From: "Lewis Reich" Subject: Re: ane River beds and garden beds On 11 Dec 97 at 1:07, Ramona Wheeler wrote: > altering" an experience as any peoples could go through. And as time went on, > the desert expanded, and took more land and dried up more rivers, leaving > wadis behind. Wouldn¦t the memory of that linger in legend and story for a > long, long time? Could that be the "garden" we were thrown out of? I believe that sometime in the last year or two I read an article that spoke of truly drastic changes in the shoreline of the Black Sea in a very short time during the time you mentioned. Does anyone else recall this? Lewis Reich LBR@sprynet.com Lewis ------------------------------ ANE Digest Friday, December 12 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 336 Date: 11 Dec 1997 16:52:08 U From: "David Testen" Subject: Re: ane River beds and gard Reply to: RE>>ane River beds and garde In re: the Black Sea shoreline, > > I believe that sometime in the last year or two I read an article > that spoke of truly drastic changes in the shoreline of the Black Sea > in a very short time during the time you mentioned. Does anyone else > recall this? > > Lewis Reich is it possible that you are thinking of the Caspian Sea? I remember reading of claims by a Soviet/Russian historian (Muraviev, I think) that the level of the Caspian has been dropping significantly and that coastline is now very different from what it was in Roman times. There is a synopsis/review of the argument by Robert Hewsen in the first or second issue of the Annual of the Society for the Study of Caucasia. David Testen Chicago Assyrian Dictionary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 18:52:45 -0500 From: "Lewis Reich" Subject: Re: ane River beds and gard On 11 Dec 97 at 16:52, David Testen wrote: > > I believe that sometime in the last year or two I read an article > > that spoke of truly drastic changes in the shoreline of the Black Sea > > in a very short time during the time you mentioned. > > > > Lewis Reich > is it possible that you are thinking of the Caspian Sea? I remember reading of > claims by a Soviet/Russian historian (Muraviev, I think) that the level of the > Caspian has been dropping significantly and that coastline is now very > different from what it was in Roman times. Good suggestion, but, no, I am quite sure that it was the Black Sea, and the relevant time period was prehistoric. I am starting to think that the article may have been in Scientific American, and I will go back and check. Lewis Reich LBR@sprynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 21:12:04 -0800 (PST) From: Barbara McLauchlin Subject: ane Re: Black Sea Deluge The article is "Geologists Link Black Sea Deluge to Farming's Rise" by John Noble Wilford in New York Times, "Science" section, December 17, 1996. Barbara McLauchlin San Francisco State University Department of Classics 415-338-1537 ------------------------------ ANE Digest Saturday, December 13 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 337 ----------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:34:34 -0500 From: Ainslie Thomson Subject: ane Black Sea water levels Dr. Walter Pitman, a professor at Lamont-Doherty Earth observatory, says that evidence he's found of an ancient flood of the Black Sea might well explain the emergence of the flood myths in the Bible and the Epic of Gilgamesh. His book, Noah's Journey, will be published by Simon and Schuster in the Fall of 1998. He was interviewed by Bob Macdonald of the CBC science show Quirks and Quarks on Dec. 6th. Ainslie Thomson Engineering/Science Library Queen's University Kingston, Ontario CANADA K7L 5C4 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 15:42:16 EDT From: "Laura D. Steele" Subject: Re: ane Black Sea levels Professor Mehmet Ozdogan of Istanbul University gave a lecture at Cornell University last year and briefly mentioned the influence of rising Black Sea levels on prehistoric sites in the region. He was writing an article in English on the subject, but I have not yet seen it in print. He has, however, touched on the question in other articles in English: Ozdogan, M. 1991. "Eastern Thrace before the beginning of Troy I -- an Archaeological Dilemma," in J. Lichardus (ed.) _Die Kupferzeit als historische Epoche, Sarrbrucker Beitrage zur Altertumskunde_, Bonn, pp.217-225. Ozdogan, M. 1993. "The Second Millennium of the Marmara region: the perspective of a prehistorian on a controversial historical issue," _Istanbuler Mitteilungen_ 43, pp.151-163. There are further sources in Turkish if anyone is interested, but this should suffice for now. Cheers, Laura D. Steele Cornell University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09:12 EST From: ABARIS7 Subject: ane BLACK SEA FLOOD Hi Group, Further to Laura D. Steele's note; A team of geologists from Columbia University, led by Walter C. Pittman and William Ryan discovered evidence for a massive flood that was caused by the rising sea levels circa 5500 BCE. The Black Sea basin had been isolated from the Mediterranean during the last ice age. They claim, and their evidence suggests, that the water poured through the Bosporos Straits like a freight train, (a thousand times the flow of Niagara Falls) inundating aprox. 60,000 sq. miles to a depth of about 500 feet in a period of less than thirty years. The controversy rages, of course, with both the floods of Gilgamesh and Noah quickly being introduced into the debate. It follows, that as this was one of the areas associated to very early cultivation of grain crops, that some consider this flood to be the impetus for the diffussion of agricultural knowledge into the surrounding areas, including those of Shumer and Egypt. That they would have also carried the stories of a great flood that inundated their, what to them perhaps, was a garden, seems only reasonable. All in all, a most interesting development, particularly for those interested in ANE civilizations. Those who subscribe to BAR can find a small report in the March/April, 1997 issue, page 10. The best source for their evidence is a TV special of their show on the "The Unexplained". (USA) from several months ago. I believe a tape is available. Regards Robert Linton ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 10:01:15 +0200 From: Geoffrey Summers Subject: Re: ane Re: Black Sea Deluge A fascinating paper was presented and an abstract circulated at the INQUA symposium in Anakara last April by W.B.F. Ryan et al. The symposium will be published in a volume of Quaternary Studies. My feeling is the the dates suggested, "7.5 kyr BP", is too late to explain the expansion of agriculture, but there ought to be some evidence for the catastrophic change in the archaeological record. Geoffrey Summers ------------------------------ ANE Digest Sunday, December 14 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 338 Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:24:39 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: Re: ane BLACK SEA FLOOD On Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09, Robert Linton wrote (in part): >A team of geologists from Columbia University, led by Walter C. Pittman and >William Ryan discovered evidence for a massive flood that was caused by the >rising sea levels circa 5500 BCE. The Black Sea basin had been isolated from >the Mediterranean during the last ice age. They claim, and their evidence >suggests, that the water poured through the Bosporos Straits like a freight >train, (a thousand times the flow of Niagara Falls) inundating aprox. 60,000 >sq. miles to a depth of about 500 feet in a period of less than thirty years. >(snip) >All in all, a most interesting development, particularly for those interested >in ANE civilizations. Most interesting indeed, Robert. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. I believe this to be the most credible hypothesis I have seen for the sort of sudden, dramatic and catastrophic event that would have been required, in my view, to undergird the seemingly pervasive flood mythologies in these critical neolithic peoples. I do not subscribe to BAR, but I judge from your comments that there is reasonable empirical evidence to support the geological aspect. There was an analog in the western United States which may be of relevance. In brief, the retreat of the ice sheets in the Americas (which had reached a line roughly south of New York City) was apparently not a uniform phenomenon. As I understand it (and I am no geologist), a cordillera of ice remained in roughly southern Canada even as the flanges in the U.S. receded and, more importantly, as a massive body of meltwater accumulated behind it. Eventually (and it was a long "eventually") the continuing climate change and the accumulating weight and pressure of the water combined to crate an aperture. The suddenness and force of the consequent flood is almost impossible to conceptualize: billions of gallons of water exploding out with almost unimaginable force for years. The scars it left on the terrain baffled geology from its inception, and the explanations that were offered were akin to those for terrestrial deployment prior to the acceptance of plate tectonics. Eventually, of course, the cause was determined to be that which I have just recounted. But imagine if there had been human habitation at the time, some of whom survived this catastrophe. The mark on their psychology, their memory and their history/mythology would likely have been profound almost beyond belief. Therein, however, lies the one catch to the story. These events in the Americas occurred long before there was human habitation and certainly long before 5500 BCE. I am thoroughly uninformed on the reach of the ice sheets in the ancient Near East and the sequence, timing and nature of the events that attended their recession. Yet even acknowledging this ignorance on my part, it does seem to me that 5500 BCE is rather too late for so dramatic an effect of the end of the Ice Age to have yet been unexpressed, particularly at the latitudes of the Black Sea. If such were the case, however, and if the American analog is essentially valid, there would seem to me to be little further need to search for the historical reality behind the ANE flood mythologies. Best regards, Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net ------------------------------ ANE Digest Wednesday, December 17 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 341 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:53:09 +0100 From: "Dr. Reinhard G.Lehmann" Subject: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood I remember that several years ago I read something about a kind of Black Sea Flood and Deluge in an book by Johannes Riem, Die Sintflut in Sage und Wissenschaft, Hamburg 1925. Another old-new hypothesis? - -- Reinhard G.Lehmann Lecturer of Classical Hebrew and Aramaic Johannes-Gutenberg Universität Mainz D - 55099 Mainz tel: +49-6131 - 39 3284 mailto:lehmann@mail.uni-mainz.de http://www.uni-mainz.de/~lehmann ------------------------------ ANE Digest Thursday, December 18 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 342 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 07:55:20 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood (redux) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 00:53, Reinhard G.Lehmann wrote: >I remember that several years ago I read something about a kind of >Black Sea Flood and Deluge in an book by Johannes Riem, Die Sintflut >in Sage und Wissenschaft, Hamburg 1925. Another old-new hypothesis? Hello Reinhard, Perhaps so. The title cleary points to an examination of the science behind the saga of the matter at hand, and it would seem logical to me that the conclusion of the work would be that there was at least some (perhaps a substantial amount of) empirical evidence to support a catastrophic event of such magnitude as to undergird the great flood mythologies of the region (what other raison d'etre could the work have?). I have not seen the article Robert Linton referred to in the March/April 1997 issue of BAR (and I frankly don't know what this journal BAR is). But Robert's summary of that article in his message dated Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:09, Subject: Black Sea Flood, indicated that the geologist authors (Walter Pittman & William Ryan of Columbia) had "discovered evidence for a massive flood that was caused by the rising sea levels circa 5500 BCE." The rising sea levels were a product of the accumlating melt at the end of the last ice age, a recognized phenomenon, and it is suggested that the suddenness of the flood was the product of some geologic blockage in the general area of the Bosporus or the Dardanelles, which had for tens of thousands of years restrained the natural flow of this growing volume of melt water, suddenly giving way (and, presumably, forming the Bosporus or the Hellespont, and likely both, as we know them). This would be convergent with the analogous phenomenon in the Western United States that I mentioned in my message dated Sat, 13 Dec 1997 12:24, same subject. But the one possible glitch in this scenario that I mentioned in that message yet remains: How could a retreating ice age phenomenon of this particular nature have been delayed so long (at Hellespont latitudes) to have occurred in historic times? I was therefore wondering, Reinhard, if the work to which you refer were still reasonably available to you (or if perhaps may remember), if you could kindly inform us as to the estimated point in time which Johannes Riem fixed for the even in his work to which you made reference? Ich danke. Auf wiederlesen, (-; Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:48:55 EST From: FucciXXV Subject: Re: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood (redux) In a message dated 97-12-17 10:10:22 EST, Christopher Robbins writes: >I have not seen the article Robert Linton referred to in the >March/April 1997 issue of BAR (and I frankly don't know what this >journal BAR is). "BAR" is "Biblical Archaeology Review" -- assuming that your comment wasn't intended as a witty aside on the disfavor with which serious academics sometimes seem to view BAR, and I just didn't get the joke. The "article" is really only a five paragraph mention in the "Strata" section of the magazine, at p. 10. >But the one possible glitch in this scenario that I mentioned in that >message yet remains: How could a retreating ice age phenomenon >of this particular nature have been delayed so long (at Hellespont >latitudes) to have occurred in historic times? Since Ryan and Pittman appear to link the event primarily to rising sea levels and not necessarily to any local glacial retreat in the area of the Hellespont, I don't know that the latitudes involved would make any difference. Jim Thorn Chicago, IL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 03:04:22 EST From: ABARIS7 Subject: ane BLACK SEA FLOOD cont. Hi Group, Reference, Black Sea Flood,....(various) Those wishing to acquire a copy of the TV special on this subject can do so by phoning A&E-TV at >1-800-423-1212 < it costs $19.95 plus $3.95 (US) postage and handling. As A&E seems to be affiliated with BBC-TV, I expect it should be available through them in Europe. In the meantime; One of the more interesting proposals, (my favorite) suggests a possible explanation for the mystery of the "Urnu-snakes" and "things of stone" from the Epic of Gilgamesh. It appears that the Bosporus has a rather unusual counter-current so that by lowering a basket of stones down into this swift current it can 'pull' a small boat at about a mile or two an hour through the full 19 miles of the Strait in a day. They suggest that the word 'Urnu' is derived from words for Hemp, so interpret this to mean Hemp basket tow ropes. Of course, the "things of stone" that were "things of the ship" that allowed one to travel over Siduri's "Sea of Death" were the stones in the drogue basket. For those unfamiliar with the myth, I should add; It was Gilgamesh who destroyed these "things of stone" and as the boatman Urshanabi could't navigate the Waters of Death to the home of Utnapishtim without them Gilgamesh was forced to go into the forest and cut 120 punting poles, each 60 cubits long so as to be able to make his way to the refuge of Utnapishtim. Few place Gilgamesh as far North as the Bosporus but it is an elegant explanation which they happily demonstrate...so, if it's not right it should be! It appears that once again we must await the judgement of our linguist friends. Regards, Robert Linton ------------------------------ ANE Digest Friday, December 19 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 343 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 04:35:11 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: Re: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood (redux) On Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:48, Jim Thorn wrote: >In a message dated 97-12-17 10:10:22 EST, Christopher Robbins writes: > >>I have not seen the article Robert Linton referred to in the >>March/April 1997 issue of BAR (and I frankly don't know what this >>journal BAR is). > >"BAR" is "Biblical Archaeology Review" -- assuming that your comment wasn't >intended as a witty aside on the disfavor with which serious academics >sometimes seem to view BAR, and I just didn't get the joke. The "article" is >really only a five paragraph mention in the "Strata" section of the magazine, >at p. 10. Thanks, Jim. I indeed did not know, and no wit or allusion were implied. And having not yet seen the journal, I would certainly make no pronouncement on its merits. Yet I suspect we would agree that there have been some occasions where the term "biblical archaeology" has been So what was that blockage? Because unless there was a blockage that somehow held back the accumulating melt water and the rising sea levels that this melt water was generically causing around the globe, there is also no de facto dam to break and release the force and volume of that water into the great flood which may be the physical reality behind the region's flood mythologies. It therefore seems to me, Jim, that to speak of rising sea levels would not be sufficient. There must also be documentation of the blockage, and that blockage cannot be of ice (due to latitude) yet must last until historic times before giving way. It is this latter aspect which renders the hypothesis about the acient Near East so radically different from its documented analog in the Americas. And that radical divergence between the hypothesis and the scientifically confimred reality is what causes me to be suspicious of the former. Best regards, Christopher Robbins New York City crisica@idt.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:50:56 EDT From: "Laura D. Steele" Subject: Re: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood (redux) Mr. Robbins et. al.: I do not wish to prolong this conversation on ANE, but your last message warrants a brief response. You seem concerned that there is no evidence for blockage of the Black Sea apart from a glacial one. To the contrary, Prof. Mehmet Ozdogan argues something entirely different (see my last post for references to his articles): the submerged EBA sites around the periphery of the Black Sea indicate that its water level has risen c.10 meters since that time. This implies that the Black Sea was cut off from the Marmara Sea/Dardanelles (and by extension, global sea levels) for some time. Alternatively, the area around the Gulf of Izmit/Sapanca basin east of Istanbul seems entirely devoid of early settlement. Therefore, Ozdogan argues that the Black Sea was originally linked with the Marmara Sea via the Gulf of Izmit/Sapanca basin, until the Sakarya delta silted up (in the same way that the connection between the Black and Caspian Seas has been filled) and cut off the Black Sea. Meanwhile, global sea levels continued to rise, and in the fourth millennium the Marmara flooded over into the Black Sea through the Bosporus. I have not seen any geomorphological responses to this argument, but it seems to fit the material evidence. Please refer to the suggested sources before continuing this discussion. Laura D. Steele ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 11:37:01 -0500 From: Christopher Robbins Subject: ane Re: Black Sea Flood (redux) Hello Laura, And please feel free to call me Chris, if that is comfortable to you. Thank you very much for taking the time to draft your very helpful message to me below. I am hoping I may be able to solicit a brief moment more of your time for a few quite simple items which follow: I am not completely certain that I received your "last post" which you mention in your message. I remember wondering what it was that Robert Linton was refering to, in the message from him to which my initial post was a response, when he said "Further to Laura D. Steele's note". No doubt this is due to some error on my part. Nonetheless, may I ask you to kindly forward to me a copy of your post with the references to Prof. Ozdogan's articles (and books?). I surely have no problem with the hypothesis you outlined in your message, Laura. My only point on the "blockage" matter was that there had to have been one, for otherwise no scenario could make any sense. My further point was that to the extent that the Near Eastern flood followed the North American analog (where the blockage was caused by a certain range of deeply compacted ice which resisted melting by virtue of its more Northern latitude), then the flood could not have taken place in historic times, particularly at the latitude of the Hellenspont. And in a subsequent message, since Jim Thorn seemed to be unclear on the point, to note that all rises in sea level are a glacial-melt deriviative phenomenon. Am I correct in judging that Prof. Ozdogan is an archaeologist? Would he generally be considered to be a bilbical archaeologist? What do the initials "EBA" (as in "EBA sites") stand for? And finally, may I presume that you are one of the so called "list owners" of the ANE list? Perhaps a sort of co-owner with Charles Jones? Oh, it is just I here, Laura. There is no "et alia". Thanking you in advnace, >Meanwhile, global sea levels continued to rise, and in the fourth >millennium the Marmara flooded over into the Black Sea through the >Bosporus. I have not seen any geomorphological responses to this >argument, but it seems to fit the material evidence. > >Please refer to the suggested sources before continuing this >discussion. > >Laura D. Steele ------------------------------ through natural canyons. sasa neuman ------------------------------ ANE Digest Saturday, December 20 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 344 Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 07:46:54 -0500 From: "Peter T. Daniels" Subject: Re: ane Re: ANE Black Sea Flood People following this thread might like to look at the January *Atlantic Monthly*, with a cover story by William H. Calvin on the mechanisms of major climate change. The magazine format doesn't allow proper referencing, of course, but many theorists' names are included as well as some of the journals where they publish. - -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@worldnet.att.net ------------------------------ ANE Digest Monday, December 22 1997 Volume 1997 : Number 346 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 09:28:39 -0600 (CST) From: nyokabi@kingcon.com Subject: ane Black sea flood I seem to remember that this Black Sea eruption was dated to c. 5000 BC? Last night I happened to be glancing through Grace Burkholder's first account of her finding of Ubaid sherds in E Arabia (Archaeology 25, 1972). She notes on p. 265 that "We also found barnacles on some of the reed impressed plaster, evidence which bolstered our belief that the sea-level here, at some point during the historical era, rose to a point higher than its prehistoric level, and then once again subsided. A sample of shells from a hearth in the immediate vicininty of a round bottomed beaker has been processed by Dr. Henry Nelson...It gives a reading of 6157 +/- 238 years which, converting for the known variation in radiocarbon readings for the 5th milennium, gives a date for the hearth and beaker of approximately 5057 BC +/- 288 years." Not sure if this would mean the shells dated to that time, or if the hearth might have been much older than the flood? Wonder if the Black sea flood could have somehow affected the upper Tigris-Euphrates drainage basin, and thus flooded Mesopotamia and raised levels in the Persian Gulf? Hard to conceive, unless maybe the Caspian burst at the same time? I also recently read something-- a chart of climatic change in ANE and/or NE Africa. There was a fall off from the last pluvial? some wetter period ending at 10,000 BC. Then followed a dry period till c 5000 BC. At this point a last wet period lasted till 2,500 BC, when the final drying out began, whose early results we see in late OK accounts of drought in the red lands... Is it possible that if there was a Flood around 5000 BC which raised Mediterranean levels and therefore converted Egypt into the swamp which the Ethiopians reported it was in the time of Osiris, is it possible that geologists have interpreted these signs to mean this was a period of increased rainfall? Or vice versa, is it possible that the end of the glacial melt had left the Black sea full almost to the brim, as it were, and that the onset of renewed heavy rain cycles starting c 5000 BC raised the levels to the bursting point? Just wondering, e adams ------------------------------