*** Set your nickname using '/nick name' (eg: '/nick Jenn') *** CONNECTED *** *** CptButton has arrived from crl2.crl.com! *** Who updated Jenn V.> Morning, Cap. JL> Captain Button! CptButton> hi all. Dancer> On the whole, these last couple generations of Royalty have been well-behaved, and very subdued and pleasant...Compared to their predecessors. *** Jean has arrived from 1! *** Who updated Dancer> media alas, destroys all that. JL> Jean! Anne> Yes, maybe we have. I always am expecting some one else to do the housework, take out the garbage and do the cooking. Unfortunately no one does. > Jenn V. whistles softly, murmuring some high points. Henry VIII. Jenn V.> Morning Jean. Jean> Hi, everybody! Anne> Hi CptButton. Hi Jean Dancer> Most anyone called Harold, or John. JL> We've been here for hours, and Jenn and her husband Dancer have to sleep sometime soon. Jenn V.> John got bad press. Richard was the one who expected him to shove a lot of money his way. Jean> This is great--the connection is working. Jenn V.> Nah. I slept all afternoon. Jean> What happened to the chat taking place in the afternoon? JL> The connection is real slow lately. Jenn V.> Yeah. There's been connection problems in the pacific and the us. Dancer> Bah. I'm thinking of staying on, and seeing about some useful work later in the morning. JL> This is the chat in the afternoon. It's almost two here. Jean> Why didn't someone tell me you changed the time? Jenn V.> it's almost 5 here. JL> I didn't change the time. the List has been down. Jenn V.> I posted 2pm US east coast time to the SMOF boards. Jean> Jacqueline, it's one o'clock where you are. Jean> It's noon here. Jenn V.> The official chat hasn't started. JL> I sent messages to the List I'd been on Strayla 2-4pm EST. Jenn V.> This is the bumming-around-keeping-Jenn-awake chat. JL> but that message never posted. Jean> Why is SIMEGEN-L "held"? > Dancer gives Jenn a hug to keep her awake. > Jenn V. shrugs. I have nooooo idea. JL> We've talked about some really interesting stuff. We have a log that will be posted. Jean> Leigh is "holding" it--the listserv itself is working. JL> Nobody knows, lots of theories. It is a university. And maybe Leigh forgot to turn it on before she left.? Anne> Everybody give both Jenn and DAncer a hug to stay awake. HUG CptButton> I don't know but it has gotten held before, but not while Leigh was on vacation. Jean> HUG JL> Hug JL> Anyway, absence makes the heart grow fonder. Dancer> Much appreciated, one and all. Thanks from us both. Jean> Yeah--I miss chatting by e-mail. > Jenn V. mmss, and sips hot soup - being careful not to spill it on any huggers. JL> Jean has spent some time in England. We were discussing living in a Commonwealth country and being beraged with news of The Royals. Jean> So what's going on? Dancer> ..and what a batch of silly old huggers we are... Anne> I'm sipping orange juice from a Medieval Times Tankard. > Jenn V.'s mug bears a UFP logo. Merchandising. JL> I just finished my tea in a styrofoam cup. Jean> So in the US we get news of the Kennedys. Jenn V.> Kennedys, Windsors.. > Dancer has a coffee (black and three due to lack of milk) in a bunny-mug. JL> Hey did you hear about the death of one of the Kennedy men today? Jean> That poor man who died yesterday would not have made the news otherwise. Jean> He was just another ski accident. Anne> Again yes. That family has nothing but troubles. Plenty of money but more problems than I'd ever want to have to deal with. JL> Might have, but not front page. Dancer> The local news-media have been treating it like the holy grail. Verily, it's been a slow news day, and they mought have had little else, elsewise. Jenn V.> Ok. Whats going on.. well, there's a rather pretty false dawn of January 2nd sweeping across the eastern sky here, it having rained during the night. Jean> I've spent the morning on the latest Zhag~Tonyo story. JL> Anyway, the theory of being ROYAL and what it means. I was about to say that the only thing that keeps a Royal Family on a throne is popular opinion. The whole LIFE is oriented toward cultivating the right public IMAGE. Jenn V.> And we're having a cold snap. Yesterday's temperatures were 4oC to 8oC colder than normal. Jenn V.> Oooh! I want to read .. the last one. :) Jean> None of us have succeeded in cultivating the right image. JL> Yeah, so it's good we're not royal. > Jenn V. grins. I wouldn't want to be. JL> Still being Sectuib is all about Image too. Jean> Besides, the British Royal family would have been out ages ago if public opinion counted. Jean> What happened to being the best channel in the Householding? Jenn V.> About image and having a sexy nager. JL> I"m not so sure. I think public opinion may do them in this generation. JL> Sexy nager - right. Dancer> Question: Why _is_ it called 'false dawn'. It's a lightening of the eastern sky that continues unabated until the sun's fiery disk lofts itself into the heavens..So what's 'false' about it? Jean> Sexy nager could be a real problem. Jean> In fact, I think it is for Muryin. JL> Because you think "Oh, it's dawn" -- but dawn is still hours away. Anne> 'Its not "real" dawn yet. JL> Dawn is when the sun peeks above the horizon. Jenn V.> Because, dear, in latitudes other than ours, dawn is still hours away - rather than just minutes away JL> False dawn is when the skyglow becomes stronger than the stars. Jenn V.> Its the same as twilight, which we also don't get. Dancer> Hmph. I always considered it dawn when you could see that the sky was lightening. Anne> Nope, it's when the sun comes up. Jenn V.> That's because OUR sky only lightens 20 minutes before dawn, not 2-3 hours. Jean> Yes--dawn is when the sky starts to lighten. JL> That's why it's called DARKOVER -- dawn and night come without WARNING. Jenn V.> Oh. The entire world is equatorial? Jean> False dawn is lightening and then fading again. *** logCB has arrived from bermuda.io.com! *** Who updated JL> No, there's the 'Wall Around The World" that casts such a shadow. JL> Bermuda? Who's CB? Jenn V.> Duh. I forgot that. Jenn V.> Cap Button, making a log, I think. JL> Oh, CB. OK logCB> yup. Dancer> I shall muse on this. Muse...muse.. Jenn V.> Which Muse? Terphsichore? > Jenn V. coughs and amends spelling. Terpsichore? JL> I think Dancer musing could be dangerous. > Jenn V. hates her spalling misteaks, and wants to go look it up now. Sheesh. JL> Especially with the muse of dance involved. Dancer> I was thinking more of Evadne, the Muse of Whore-house piano players, drty limericks, and topical jokes. Jenn V.> Araldite, the goddess of sticky situations? JL> Do Simes have a muse of their own? Jean> Evadne would dance to Zhag and Tonyo's music! Jenn V.> Tonyoe, the muse of nageric art. :) JL> The Nageric Muse -- like the hologram doctor? Dancer> What seems to be the nature of the lateral emergency? Anne> Grin JL> > Dancer watches Jenn indulge in an extended coughing fit. Jenn V.> Dancer is dangerous. JL> That's why it's so good he's on our side. He is, isn't he? Anne> and Prancer and Vixen? Dancer> I'm innocent! There's any number of religions that say so! Jenn V.> I don't know. He sleeps on his side. And my side. And both sides. Jean> Oh, now there's a potential S~G legend. Jenn V.> of the bed Jenn V.> Where, Jean? Dancer> Legends of the Bed. All this week, on Geraldo. Jean> The ghost-nager. JL> Legends of the Transfer Couch! Jenn V.> Do we WANT this log on the web? JL> Yes. Only the dedicated will dig down to this. Dancer> It _is_ getting a trifle dire. Mostly my fault, probably. Jenn V.> True Jean> You zlin him, but you can't see, hear, etc. him. Anne> Speaking of which, a favorite line of a movie I like is "No man over 12 ye ars of age is innocent." > Jenn V. peers at Jean. OOOH! Yes, that's a legend! Jenn V.> Which movie? > Dancer considers that. Hmm. Pretty durn close. Anne> The Long Hot Summer Jean> The Creeping Need! CptButton> Jenn> How do I get the applet screen to stay scrolled up. I scroll up to read the backlog, and when some one says something I pop down to the botto n again. Dancer> The neeping creed? Anne> The Creeping Need? ' Ill have to write that. Jean> You can't see it--it comes in the night and steals your selyn. Jenn V.> Cap: I'm afraid I don't KNOW. It's something dependant on the exact Jav a implementation your browser runs JL> The Creeping Need" is a Prize Winning Novel made into a movie the year a Sim e Walks On Mars. Anne> And I suppose it leaves six little tentacle marks. Jenn V.> Son of the Creeping Need. Dancer> Better than leaving an empty six-pack and some hoo-hoo wrappers.. CptButton> Jenn> k. Jenn V.> The Creeping Need Returns Anne> And dies at the sight chocolate covered strawberrie.s Dancer> Beneath the planet of the Creeping Need. > Jenn V. laughs Jean> Bride of the Creeping Need Anne> Son of the Bride of the Creeping Need Jenn V.> Creeping Need Resurrection JL> It Came From Outer Space Dancer> Creeping on Need Street. Jean> Companion of the Creeping Need Dancer> Oooo Anne> And then, that all time award winner, I was the daughter of the Mother of the Son of the Creeping Need Jenn V.> Sectuib of the Creeping Need Dancer> Virgin on the Island of the Creeping Need. JL> Confessions of a Recovered Creeping Need Victim. Anne> The Creeping Need's Revenge Jean> House of the Creeping Need! Jenn V.> Gens of the Creeping Need Dancer> Godzilla vs The Creeping Need. Jean> Wer-Gens of the Creeping Need JL> Backlash to the Sime Space Program. Nature Never Intended Faster Than Light Travel. Anne> Creeping Need XX > Jenn V. peers at Jean. Are you using my brain cell? Jean> Alien XXV: The Creeping Need > Jenn V. laughs Dancer> The Creeping Need that came to Sarnath Anne> Brady Bunch visits the Creeping Need Jenn V.> Creeping Need from the Black Lagoon > Jenn V. coughs at Anne. Aren't we getting unnecessarily horrible? JL> Captain Button Conquers the Creeping Need. Jenn V.> I mean, bringing .. THEM .. into this? Dancer> Gilligan's Need. > Jenn V. giggles at JL > Jenn V. gasps, chokes, collapses on the floor. Dancer> ..and the animated classic tv series 'Captain Nager'. Jenn V.> At The Mountains Of The Creeping Need Jean> The Brady Bunch would be safe--the Creeping Need can's zlin through polyes ter. CptButton> What? Dancer> The Need on the Doorstep. CptButton> But I've got to bail out the eyestalk aliens again this week! Jenn V.> The Fall of the House of the Creeping Need Jenn V.> The Pit and the Creeping Need Jean> Why did I start this thread?! JL> The Creeping Need Sues Captain Button Jenn V.> The Creeping Need of Amontillado Jenn V.> I don't know, Jean. JL> Because Jean's a jeanius. > Dancer ROTFL. JL> I only tease those I love dearly you know. CptButton> JL> The bermuda in my ISP's name is a bermuda triangle reference. Y ou get the sort of thing at Illuminati Online CptButton> Not lawyers! Noooooooooo.... JL> Lawyers of the Creeping Need Dancer> Good ol' io.com. What a legend. Dancer> Eek! Jean> Anyway, it's a series of out-T horror movies about 20 years after Unity. JL> And popular in response to the thrust toward space, and FTL in particular. Jean> Probably Iliver Teague's last gasp as an enterpreneur. > Jenn V. watches a possible slowdown.. usa network reporting slow again CptButton> Hmmm... how much movie crossover will there be between territories. *** Unknown1 has arrived from pmb3.ucs.net! Jenn V.> By that time, probably a fair bit CptButton> dubbing to and from simelan. Unknown1> I was disconnected by the Creeping Need > Dancer applauds. *** Unknown1 is now known as 'Unknown2' Jean> With nageric choruses. > Jenn V. literally applauds. Unknown2> Okay, I guess I'm Unknown 2 *** Unknown2 is now known as 'Unknown1' Jenn V.> Ah. You can't be known as Anne because you're still on as Anne. Jenn V.> The server thinks you're still connected. Try Anne P. Unknown1> Am I on as Ann now? Jenn V.> Or Anne2 Jenn V.> No... *** Unknown1 is now known as 'AnneP' Dancer> Or Creeping Need > Jenn V. slaps Dancer. Dancer> Ow CptButton> Would in-t movies be more accessable to gens because they are designe d to communicate with out a nageric component? (? AnneP> Hello Jenn V.> That worked. AnneP> Good. See what happens when your need creeps. Jenn V.> Probably, CB. More accessible than plays and live performances. > Jenn V. giggles. Jean> Yes, early in-T movies would be accessible to Gens. JL> That's like "silent" films -- a short era before they get nageric "backgroun d music" and then real nageric recording strips. > Dancer stifles himself before he mentions Creeping Need Ressurection. Jenn V.> I said that one, dear. Dancer> Oh, good. I can blame you for it then. > Jenn V. watches our cat find itself an unstable place to sit. And warns her. JL> If we go offline here, it's the cat's fault? Dancer> Not that the cat pays a lot of attention. Jenn V.> Must be. CptButton> do cats have sime balance? JL> I've always used the term "catlike grace" to describe the way Simes move. Jean> Cats are as close to Simes as you'll get. Jenn V.> If so, the cat we had before this one certainly didn't AnneP> I think it's Simes who have cat balance Jenn V.> Ah, I see, JL. Simes can trip on a perfectly smooth floor? Jean> Simes have better balance than cats. Jean> If they zlin something you can't! JL> However, when I was working on a circus project, I interviewed a wire artist who was the first person I ever saw who really did have CATLIKE GRACE. It chan ged my defn. of what humans can do. AnneP> If it's wet CptButton> Yeah, but they pretend they *meant* to do that. Jenn V.> Or at least better balance than the persian we used to have. > Jenn V. smiles at Cap. JL> So that wire artist defines for me the MOST a Gen can achieve in the 'catlik e grace' department. > Jenn V. nods to JL. Hm. Jean> Humans keep adding to what humans can do. CptButton> Of course cats often watch things that aren't there... are they zlin ning? JL> Gens have a bit less coordination than Ancients, and Simes a bit more so the difference between Gens and Simes is stark.. Jean> Sure--Simes are the result of cloning cat genes into himans. > Jenn V. doesn't know, but I know I -seem- to perceive a field around anything living. Dancer> Of course they are. If they weren't, it'd have to be a plot to confuse u s. AnneP> Sime and Gens are the result of a disinformation campaign? Jean> Simes only _think_ Gens are less coordinated. Jenn V.> CATS CONTROL THE WORLD! JL> Oh, yes, all living things generate a field that is perceptible if you know how to look for it. JL> Cats know how to USE their fields to control their worlds. AnneP> And if Cats don't then they think they do. Jean> The way men think women are illogical. > Jenn V. must go and fetch milk.. Jenn V.> .... and women know men are. Dancer> I'd thank folks to exclude me from that category. AnneP> men or cats JL> Yes, that's it exactly -- you can learn a lot studying a cat. Jean> What category? Men? Women? Simes? Gens? Jean> Cats? JL> Actually, the "problem" with "men" is not a problem with men at all. It's B OYS that drive women nuts. Men are great. > Dancer feels like neither a typical man, nor a typical cat. I doubt strongly t hat I'm a sime or a gen, either. Jean> The reason no one can figure out the S~G mutation is that they keep studyi ng the wrong larity. AnneP> Then it's obvious that Jenn must be an atypical woman. JL> I think it's GIRLS that men don't like. CptButton> Dave Barry has written on the topic of 'guys' vs. 'men' > Jenn V. nods. I'm almost certainly atypical in a variety of ways, Anne. :) Dancer> Jenn is most _definitely_ atypical. Jean> They study Simes, because they seem to be the obvious mutation. Jenn V.> Nah. It's the Gens who aren't Ancients. Jean> Tentacles, zlinning, etc. Jenn V.> Simes are Ancients with a bit of a twist to their genetics. Gens are di fferent. Jean> But Gens are the original mutation. Jenn V.> I'd figured Gens had to come first, simply for survivability. AnneP> So what would happen if some genetic researcher tried to gene splice a ge n and a sime together. Would they get an ancient or a new ancient. *** Anne has left! AnneP> But AnneP is still here. Jenn V.> It would depend on which genes they spliced. Dancer> A channel :) JL> We have to wait for Mary Lou. Jean> Modern medicine has only just now figured out that women are the original of the species. Jenn V.> Oh that's right. She's a geneticist, isn't she? JL> In ten minutes or so it'll be 2 Jenn V.> Or 5am. Jean> I heard that Mary Lou won't be here today. JL> Yes, Mary Lou is our genetic engineer -- not a mere geneticist. > Jenn V. ooohs. Jean> On IRC last night Cheryl told me Mary Lou's grandmother has died. > Jenn V. winces. !good. JL> Her grandmother! Oh, no. Jean> Mary Lou has gone to Texas. JL> Zeesh! JL> Right after her father, too. Jean> I'm sure Mary Lou will be very happy to have 1997 in the past. JL> I was hoping we'd have a better year on the List. This is no way to start. CptButton> Yeah. MLM sent a email saying that to the IRC log dist. list. Dancer> x *** Dancer has left! JL> What happened to Dancer? *** has left! *** has left! *** Dancer has arrived from anaconda.brisnet.org.au! Jenn V.> He vanished? Jean> Creeping Need! Dancer> I'll keep an eye out for whatever happened happening again. If it does, I'll file it as a bug report. JL> Yes and the log went crazy with has lefts and who updateds. Jenn V.> Into the Maw of the Creeping Need! > Dancer has a Creeping Need to do bug reports. *** KLitman has arrived from 202-126-116.ipt.aol.com! > Jenn V. wrinkles her nose at Dancer. If you write a bug report, you get to hel p me fix it. JL> Karen!!! Jenn V.> Mood Gorning, Karen. Dancer> I figured that, yes. Jean> Hi, Karen! KLitman> 'Morning all Dancer> Merry Creeping Need, Karen. CptButton> Greetings Karen. JL> You weren't here last year, Karen. This is so much easier than MIRC JL> Karen missed the Creeping Need. KLitman> Ha!! I'm in the middle of "This Old House." Jenn V.> She can catch it in the log. JL> Karen - we're saving a log to post on the web. KLitman> They're putting up a new celing right now Jenn V.> This is the House that Karen built. Dancer> Well, the log should probably prove to the State that we're all safer lo cked up. KLitman> So what else is new Jenn V.> Locked up in the Household that Karen Built? Jean> Which state? Jenn V.> Insanity? KLitman> The stateof Insanity JL> I'll be back in a minute. Gotta get set for the official Chat. JL Dancer> State in the general sense. As in the State vs Dancer. Jenn V.> Gimme back that brain cell, Karen. KLitman> You can't have it, I don't have enough of them Jenn V.> I will not watch Home and Away. I wi' no' wash Home an' away. Home and Away! Home and Away! KLitman> We found that the house isn't straight -- crooked house, for physically crooked people Jenn V.> Do you have a crooked sixpence? Jean> Most houses are crooked. KLitman> No sixpences in US... Jenn V.> The world isn't quite flat, and the foundations never quite stable. Erg o, the houses shift a bit. Jean> Roll a ball across your floor--anyone. KLitman> but that's the piece I think of with this house CptButton> free associating, on rec.arts.sf.written they are saying that Arthur C. Clarke got a knighthood. Jenn V.> Oh good. Jean> Yes, it was on CNN. Dancer> Be warned. The presence of cats may skew the ball-rolling experimental r esults. KLitman> We think the guy who put on the other portions didn't measure at all CptButton> US> Decimal coinage but nothing else. KLitman> Dancer, ball rolling doesn't work with my 6cats, they intercept > Jenn V. was thinking of the crooked sixpence upon a crooked stile, Cap. AnneP> Sorry, I got a call from my favorite cousin. I'm back again. CptButton> I have to be sure to water around my foundation in dry spells to keep the foundation from cracking. > Jenn V. bets pans of cream don't stay put long enough to measure flatness. :) Jenn V.> Oh fun. Where do you live, Cap? CptButton> San Antonio, Texas. Rain very seasonal and loks of clay in the soil. JL> Capt Button lives in a desert. CptButton> loks -> lots Jean> Knighthoods: Arthur C. Clarke, Petula Clark, Elton John, and the driver o f Diana's hearse (honest!) AnneP> Hi Karen, KLitman> Hi, Anne > Jenn V. is glad Clarke got a knighthood. Dancer> Prithee, a strange list indeed. AnneP> When a woman is knighted is she then give the title Dame? Jean> Yes, Dame. AnneP> Or is that for something else? Dancer> That is the case, although it is not actually called a Knighthood, per s e. JL> That's the problem. Women can be knights -- girls can't. Jenn V.> Dame. Dame Edna Everage, for instance, is Sir Barry Humphries' alter eg o. Jean> That's okay when there are two names, but which would Jean> Ru Paul be? JL> Anne: keep your browser window open and keep clicking on URLs so you won't g et kicked off by UCSnet. Jenn V.> It'd depend on whether Prince Charles or Her Majesty knighted hir. Jenn V.> Prince Charles, for instance, knighted one of the goons Sir Cumferance. Jenn V.> So Ru Paul would have to watch out. Dancer> Harry Secombe. JL> You see, Jean speaks British. JL> I'm lost in this exchange. Jean> Paul McCartney was knighted last year. Can Mick Jagger be far behind? JL> Sir Digen Farris? Jenn V.> Is Mick Jagger a citizen of the British Commonwealth? Jenn V.> Digen won't be knighted, he's not a citizen of the Commonwealth. Jean> I dunno, He may be a tax exile. JL> England isn't the only place that makes Knights. Jean> Ronald Reagan was knighted. But if we gor> Jenn V. blinks. Was he? JL> I think I remember that. AnneP> Well, the Rolling Stones is considered a British Group. logCB> aBut if we gor CptButton> sorry. > Jenn V. thought that to be knighted within the Commonwealth, you had to be a Commonwealth citizen Jean> Yup--but non-Brits can't call themselves sir. CptButton> But if we go with the Distect Islands legends, Digen will not be well thought of there... JL> Capt. Button is correct about Digen. AnneP> Americans can be knighed but only by special permission of the Congress I believe. Dancer> It is possible to be knighted outside of the commonwealth...But america must legally ignore it, since the knighthood also involves an oath of alleigance to the British Monarch. JL> Still, a Knight is a defender of his own Monarch, and usually not well liked elsewhere. Jean> Will the British Isles maintain royalty into S~G times? Or reinstate it? Jenn V.> Ah. Duh. Forgot that. CptButton> Don't Ask, Don't tell? > Jenn V. nods to Jean. Probably. Arthur, Sectuib of Sectuibs. Jenn V.> OH DEAR. That's a set of tales which must be recreated. Jenn V.> The High Sectuib of Britian JL> You've got one! CptButton> Every Sime must have a Gen's favor to inspire him to great deeds? AnneP> The Green Channel JL> Actually, I expect feudalism will be reinvented during the dark age. Jean> Householding Camelot! CptButton> (or her) Dancer> The Simes of the Round table? AnneP> The Gen In the Lake Jenn V.> Merlin, the Fully Endowed. CptButton> loyal to the gen lord in return for protection from simes? JL> Oy veh Jean> Yes--these are legends that will be invented. CptButton> loyalty to a sime lord in return for guareenteed kills? JL> Jenn did this to us. Jenn V.> ME? Jenn V.> I'm innocent! JL> You're over twelve. Jean> Look out, Jenn--here comes the Creeping Need to getcha! Dancer> But not a male over twelve. Jenn V.> I'm female! Dancer> Although she _may_ be a Creeping Need. We're still working on that. CptButton> I assume that most legends will be recat in S~G terms in order to mak e them more comprehensible. JL> So - with women it happens younger. Jean> They are archetypes, and will occur spontaneously. JL> The need for Legend will cast the archetypes anew. AnneP> Knee slapping, still knee slapping. JL> We're slowing again. > Jenn V. casts about for a change of subject. It's after 2pm Jenn V.> Your time Jean> Without the listserv, people forgot, or couldn't get instructions. JL> A few of the role players were intending to stop by. JL> Shall we delcare it a quorum and proceed with the business meeting? CptButton> no one has shown on IRC either. (MY aol IM is unavailable). Jean> Business? JL> Does someone want to sign off and go check AOL for buddies? Jenn V.> yeah, there's slowdowns around sacramento JL> Yes, the annual business meeting where we bestow the awards. KLitman> I'm on AOL now Jenn V.> As in: net-traffic jams in sacramento. JL> Karen - any of "us" online on AOL? Jean> The Rose Bowl Parade is on the WWW. KLitman> No one's on in my Buddy List for S~G > Jenn V. stretches and yawns. Might want to get started. Jenn V.> Gossamer intended to wake up for this, but may have decided to sleep in . JL> OK, this is for the official log. We have a quorum, and though Gossamer has n't turned up yet, we shall proceed. AnneP> I think that it is probably Housholding Standard Time to start. Dancer> Should I stay in or bail out for this? JL> Dancer is welcome. AnneP> Definitly stay. Jean> Anyone interested is welcome. Dancer> (but probably non-contributory. We'll see) JL> OK, let me talk now for a while, but you can cheer intermittently, then you get your sayso. JL> For the Golden YoYo award, I nominate Captain Button for making and distribu ting flyers all over Worldcon and The World! Jean> Second JL> all in favor? Jean> Aye KLitman> Aye AnneP> Aye Jenn V.> Aye JL> The eyes have it - Captain, you are the proud possesser of a Golden YoYo. Jenn V.> Dancer's gone to watch Open Learning while we vote awards for things he 's not been part of. He'll be back soon. CptButton> ~~ embarassment ~~ > Jenn V. cheers intermittently JL> Since we used to do YoYo's for each issue of a zine and had more than one a year, but do this only once a year, I declare a second Golden YoYo for 1998. CptButton> It was no big deal... KLitman> Why not KLitman> Any suggestions for Silver YoYo JL> This one has to go to Kaas Baichtal for the T-Shirt project -- not just the artwork which was incredible enough, considering how many times it had to be red one, but for producing the shirts and then getting them to Worldcon (which Capta in Button helped with) and then reprinting them for Darkover, without distinctiv e collector's marks. Jean> Second JL> Kaas is for the Golden YoYo. CptButton> aye AnneP> Aye KLitman> Anye Jenn V.> Aye Jean> aye > Dancer cheers intermittently. JL> The ayes have it. Kaas gets the second golden yoyo -- and she keeps the awa rds site, which is worth something in itself. I think she does the Bender Cove log too! JL> Not to mention all the artwork she's done. Which we want to discuss later. > CptButton cleans Dancer's cable connections trying to fix that intermittent pr oblem. JL> The next order of business is the Digen Awards JL> I propose 4 for 1998. KLitman> Meritorious Service JL> Leigh Kimmel -- ongoing service keeping the List and Apa'zine. KLitman> Who are they Jean> Second KLitman> Aye Jean> aye JL> Ronnie Bob Whitaker, Keeping the Mailing List and zine scanning and ocr'ing which is tedious if not hard. KLitman> Second AnneP> Aye and second Jean> aye AnneP> Aye CptButton> aye and aye > Jenn V. nods JL> Leigh has it with the eyes of all upon her. JL> Ronnie Bob? Do I hear an acclamation? > Jenn V. nods KLitman> Yes Jean> aye AnneP> Aye CptButton> aye on RB JL> It's unanimous, poor modest Ronnie Bob is stuck in the spotlight again. KLitman> AWWWW JL> Number 3 JL> Robin King-Nitschke -- for creating the webring for us. Without it, I'd nev er find anything! Jean> second JL> Do I hear it for Robin? KLitman> Aye, a lot of people love the Ring Jean> aye Jenn V.> That's a worthwhile effort! AnneP> Aye JL> The eyes once more have it. And Robin is spotlighted. CptButton> aye JL> #4. > Dancer cheers, JL> Here's one I'm not sure how to do. JL> #4 is Tentacled -- whoever it is -- who created this wondrous idea of anonym ous roleplaying by IRC Jenn V.> You put fingers to keyboard and press keys in specific patterns? Jean> second JL> do I hear a second? Jenn V.> aye KLitman> So you propose it under the name "tentacled" "Tentacled" will find it. Aye! AnneP> Aye Jean> aye CptButton> aye JL> Yes, it's for TENTACLED -- the Digen I mean. That's all four Digens, and no w I turn the meeting over to Karen to conduct the voting for the Silver YoYo whi ch is bestowed by CZ. KLitman> Any nominations? JL> Mike Giroux Jenn V.> What does the silver honour? JL> It's a YoYo -- so it's for all the backing and forthing involved in this com edy of errors we call fandom. KLitman> Actual Service to Companion in Zeor, but we can do anything we want JL> In this case, Mike created a computer for Karen out of pieces, and then coul dn't deliver it because of the flood. KLitman> Heaven knows he's earned it, really getting me on line, and putting CZ online too JL> And he made the CZ website, back and forth and correcting etc. until it was right. Jenn V.> Ok. Allison McGaw, who keeps track of Antipodean fans, and makes sure w e all have access to fandom one way or another. JL> And then to top it off he floored everyone by making us a CHAT. KLitman> If he didn't have the reflector link, I wouldn't be here > Jenn V. nods. I'll second Mike, cheerfully, and nominate Allison. JL> he didn't know it wouldn't be accessible to a lot of us. Then he made the r eflector for us. KLitman> We can have more than one Silver Yo yo JL> Tell us what Allison has done this year? I missed something? Jean> What happened? KLitman> We called them "mini yo-yo" *** Ricky has arrived from penguin.glasswings.com.au! Jean> What happened? *** Jean has left! *** Unknown1 has arrived from penguin.glasswings.com.au! Jenn V.> Allison hasn't necessarily done anything spectacular. But she keeps tra ck of Aust. fans, checks whether we have all the copies of books we want, organi ses group orders and distributions... *** Unknown1 has left! KLitman> We need to know what Allison has done Jenn V.> And basically does a lot of work just keeping interest up out here. JL> Jean got kicked off. KLitman> But is she S~G > Ricky curls up in Jenn's lap and yawns. *** has left! > Jenn V. nods re Jean, and nods to Karen. Yes. She's the glue that keeps S~G to gether over here. KLitman> Ok, I'll go for that KLitman> Vote on Alison JL> Behind the scenes workers are prime candidates for the YoYos. KLitman> I'll second *** Jean has arrived from 1! JL> I second Allison JL> You can't second -- you're conducting the meeting. KLitman> Aye Jenn V.> She's organised for Zoe and I to come over to her place together, menta lly cursed that Ricky there lives in Melbourne, and .. the new guy. Um. Paul? Sh e's sent mail to him & brought him into the local group Jean> Sorry--I was suddenly cut off. JL> I second Alison -- and you can't vote either. CptButton> Aye KLitman> Ok, OK > Jenn V. nods. "There's another traffic jam just showed up on our net status pa ge." > Jenn V. shuts up re Allison. AnneP> Aye AnneP> Aye JL> Glad you're back Jean - we're voting a second Silver YoYo and Karen has the gavel Jean> What are we voting on? AnneP> -one Aye Jean> Who's up for it? AnneP> -one Aye Jenn V.> Allison McGaw's silver yoyo Jean> Aye JL> Allison - a behind the scenes worker in Australia who's making s~G happen do wn under. JL> Aye - for Allison. And Aye for Mike. Jean> Aye for Mike, too JL> Karen - ask for votes. > Jenn V. ayes for Mike, and nominated Allison ergo presumably votes for her. :) CptButton> Aye for allison and mike KLitman> Call for votes on Allison Jean> Aye KLitman> Unanimous? JL> Aye for Allison McGaw Jenn V.> If Dancer votes. :) Dancer> I'm non-voting here. > Jenn V. oh-wells. JL> Dancer abstains. *** RMGir has arrived from 38.rochelle-park-02.nj.dial-access.att.net! KLitman> I gather there are no objections to Allison's being given a Silver-Yo-Y o JL> Declare them Karen. > Jenn V. backscrolls, and sees a row of ayes. RMGir> Happy new year, all! KLitman> No objections to the other nominee? Jenn V.> Happy new year, Mike. Jenn V.> None. KLitman> I declare the winners of the CZ Silver yo-yo to be Allison McGraw & Mik e Giroux JL> Congratulations Mike! JL> Congratulations Allison when you read this log. Jean> Congratulations Jenn V.> Happy New Year, Mike. RMGir> Wow, cool! I got here just in time :) Thanks, all! JL> Now turn the meeting back to me, Karen so we can finish. KLitman> You're welcome. I now hand the reins back to JL JL> Reins - oh, yeah, she rides. Thank you Karen. JL> The next order of business is a new award I just invented this morning. JL> I had a terrible problem trying to figure out what to award for this service . JL> I finally got creative and decided I couldn't decide because we didn't have an appropriate award. JL> Therefore I invented one to fit the achievements of two of the most remarkab le people I've ever met. JL> And then I added a third person. Jean> Jenn and Gossamer, right? JL> So I have three of the new awards to propose to the meeting. Jean> A Keon chain--chained to the computer! JL> Jenn and Gossamer invented Jennamer ware, and created this Chat, the BB's, a nd the search engine. > Jenn V. blushes. *** AnneP has left! *** Ricky is now known as 'Gossamer' JL> Yes, Jean you figured it out and blew my suspense. thanx. > Gossamer blushes JL> Ooops, lost anne again. Gossamer here just in time. CptButton> We all read it in her nager.... Gossamer> I've been here for ages. I didn't realize you guys didn't know my nickname JL> Well, let me finish my buildup please. I have the gavel and this is a formal business meeting. No chitchat! JL> We're almost done now. JL> I propose to name our new award, the TECHTON AWARD. *** AnneP has arrived from pmb3.ucs.net! JL> And Jean's image fits it perfectly. Jean> Ouch!!! CptButton> I like it! JL> The First TECHTON goes to Jenn Vesperman for starting the software build of Jennware techtools for us all. Jean> Who's the third winner? KLitman> Who are the nominees? > Dancer cheers. JL> So Jenn Vesperman is our first nominee JL> Do I hear a second? KLitman> Jenn --- Aye > Jenn V. blushes and .. oddly .. abstains. RMGir> Second! JL> Not ayes yet -- first I need a second. Jean> Second *** AnneP has left! > RMGir nominates RBW, for scanning above and beyond the call of duty JL> Jenn has been nominated and seconded for the first TECHTON award. All in favor? Jean> Aye KLitman> Aye. JL> Hush RMGir - later. CptButton> Aye RMGir> aye > Dancer covers his ears to muffle the deafening roar. JL> The eyes once more have it and poor Jenn has the spotlight. JL> Our second of 3 nominees is Gossamer. > Jenn V. blushes again, and murmurs thanks. RMGir> speech! :) > Dancer applauds his bright-red wife. JL> No speeches! Jean> Second JL> Those come later. KLitman> RMGir -- RBW already received an award for his work JL> Gossamer has been seconded. All in favor. Jenn V.> AYE! Jean> aye RMGir> Aye! KLitman> Aye > Gossamer hides behind Jenn! JL> Gossamer has been unanimously declared the second winner of the TECHTON AWAR D. JL> I'll just cast Anne's vote for her -- she'll be back soon. CptButton> ayye for goss > Jenn V. grins and pulls Gossamer's wheelchair out beside her. > Dancer applauds some more, moving around a bit to look like a larger audience. JL> The THIRD nominee for the TECHTON award for 1998 is *** Anne has arrived from pmb3.ucs.net! > Jenn V. holds her breath JL> MIKE GIROUX -- for making our first CHAT for us. > Gossamer . o O ( I thought I had to be around -longer- to get an award! ) Anne> I was blind but now I can see. KLitman> Second > Jenn V. grins. CptButton> Goss> me too. > RMGir declines! Someone else wrote that chat package! KLitman> But you gave it to us JL> This is a new award - has new rules. JL> You did it, you get the blame. Take it like a man. KLitman> Jl invented this award -- her ruies JL> Besides, you got the third one, not the first. Jenn started this. JL> Do I hear a second, now that he's wrapped in white chains? KLitman> I already seconded him JL> All in favor? Jean> aye RMGir> So, give the third one to Jenn&Gossamer as well! They did much more than me!! KLitman> NO! JL> Anyone else voting on this or did RMGir intimidate you folks? ayeJenn V.> Let us vote it before you hand it back, Mike. logCB> aye Anne> Aye CptButton> wrong window. KLitman> Aye RMGir> That makes sense, Jenn. Ok, I vote Nay :) Jenn V.> You can always polish it up and assign it to someone else after the fac t. I vote Aye, i'd not have thought to write this chat program if he hadn't put his up. JL> Then the eyes once more have it and the spotlight is on Mike. KLitman> Sounds fine to me Jenn V.> Or at least, I'd not have thought to write it this quickly. Jean> Congratulations, Mike KLitman> So the winners are Jenn, Gossamer and Mike! RMGir> Thanks! JL> And now we come to the last order of business. > Dancer cheers! CptButton> Congratulations J, G, & M. JL> ddraig, our very own Don, who isn't here right now, was the instigator of th e as yet unfinished VOCABULARY LIST and SOUND FILES. KLitman> Seconded JL> Perhaps we should wait until next year to embarrass him? JL> We've got a problem - what award do you get for vocabulary lists? Jean> Yes--let him finish. KLitman> Linguist? Dancer> Archivist? JL> Herald? Gossamer> Very Dedicated Person? :) Jenn V.> How about we devise an award for scholars of Sime~Gen? Dancer> The Gilded Quill? Anne> Speaker of Tonges Jean> It's a tech award, too, if those sound files get made. JL> Guilded Quill? I like that. *** CherylW has arrived from slip-32-100-54-210.la.us.ibm.net! Jenn V.> We've got fandom awards, and technologist awards, but we're going to wi nd up with people writing up stuff about the backgrounds KLitman> Linguist-Tech? JL> Cheryl we're almost finished with the business meeting, and the log will be posted for everyone to read. JL> We're inventing a new award. > Jenn V. nods. scholarly and technical can be blended, I certainly wouldn't min d. KLitman> Historian-Tech? *** Cherri has arrived from dwan3-pool039.pw-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net! CherylW> cool JL> Cherri -- we're almost done with the awards. *** RMGir is now known as 'RMGirBRB' Cherri> ok Cherri> Hugs to all JL> A log will be web posted. JL> OK, a scholar of Sime~Gen Award. The Gilded Quill? Anne> Bounce Bounce JL> any other ideas? KLitman> Fine with me Jenn V.> Perhaps the Techton award could become a Keon chain, or something? And be for any project which isn't technically fandom, but is Sime~Gen and supports SIme~Gen? JL> Tech and History etc etc? Jean> Quill and Tentacle > Jenn V. nods. Suits me. KLitman> Quill and Tentacle is fine JL> The TECHTON was basically for bringing us tech tools. Jean> The chain indicates the level of dedication required-- Jean> --whether you want to or not! JL> Quill and Tentacle Award -- hmm that has a ring to it. Jenn V.> Ok. No worries. It or they are your award/s/ JL> I'm getting signals here that something I'm trying to do isn't possible. Ar e you seeing what I type? Anne> Personally, I think it's too Simenistic Jenn V.> Yes, we are. Jean> Gens study tentacles. KLitman> We can see you JL KLitman> Gens can use quills too JL> I see what it is -- the others are chatting on #sgtalk JL> And I get sound signals from them posting. JL> OK, Quill and Tentacle is the tentative name of the Scholar's Award. With Ch ains it indicates the level of service. > Jenn V. oks. Jean> No--the chain is the Techton award. KLitman> oktoo Anne> Nay KLitman> Anne, what name do you propose JL> TECHTON was chained TO A COMPUTER JL> Quill and Tentacle has draped chains. JL> NOW to the last order of business. Someone summon the #sgtalk folk over her e. Jean> All the other awards are equal. CherylW> we're here JL> All awards are equal. CherylW> watching both screens KLitman> So we vote on Ddraig for this award? Jean> Do we really want to start a military "with clusters" on this one? JL> Ok, last order of business. CptButton> ~~ gestures with nager ~~ Anne> Hello, I do not like the name of the award. I think it's too one sided. JL> The details are for next year -- post discussion of the Scholar award on the Boards JL> Our NEXT order of business is JL> that last year we put Tecton Central on the search engines. All year we've built websites and tools. JL> This year we need to start pushing for a higher profile for our group. JL> We need to build traffic. JL> My concept was that S~G Wel would be the next "point" listed as a point of e ntry. JL> It's to be the non-frames, anyone can get into it, website. JL> And should be advertised. JL> Geocities offers several means of promoting traffic, but I've paid no attent ion. Gossamer> I passed the Welcomittee stuff to Jenn V to be finished last night, ju st so you know what's up. JL> And Jean has told me about awards they give to websites, but I've paid no at tention. Jean> The problem: strangers looking for science fiction will not type in "Sime ," "Gen," "Lichtenberg," or "Lorrah." JL> Is anyone impressed with award medalions on websites and do we need any? > Jenn V. hms. "Some are, some aren't." Jean> We don't. JL> What's our next move? KLitman> Nadine found the Ring using my name in a search Jean> Link exchange. JL> We've been doing that through OUT-TERRITORY. CherylW> yeah Link exchange JL> But I haven't had time to keep pushing and collecting links. I have more on file than I've posted. Jean> There are not enough of us for thousands of people to find us by happening to type in the name of a friend. Jean> Those on Geocities should join the Geocities link program. Jean> It only links to sites in Geocities, but there are hundreds of thousands o f them. JL> We're jammed up again? Dancer> Yahoo is one. Talk to other fan pages and see if they'll put a link to u s in exchange for a link to them...That's one way that I find things. Jenn V.> We put in the keywords and descriptions in the official pages, build an official-look to official pages, make absolutely certain that our official page s are in the search engines and the link program > Dancer means fan pages for other genres. Jean> Geocities doesn't allow the regular Link Exchange, only its own. > Jenn V. nods. We do have pages which aren't on Geocities, though. Jean> Link exchange doesn't depend on keywords. Jenn V.> No, but search engines do. JL> Or is everyone talking at once? Jean> Non-Geocities join the whole WWW link exchange. JL> Link tending is time-intensive -- so I'm still thinking about next moves. Jenn V.> I tend to ignore link exchanges and do my stuff on search engines. Jenn V.> Everyone's talking at once. Jean> No, no--the link exchange banner thing takes time only once. CherylW> some of us are just listening Jean> You join the thing, make your banner, follow the rules, and off you go. KLitman> [I'm listening too] Cherri> Me too. Jenn V.> The link exchange Jean's talking about is something Gossamer or I can d o when we post the refurbished welcommittee back up to Geocities. Jenn V.> And then it's done and forgotten forever and ever amen. Jean> Your page always comes up with a banner for some other page in the link ex change program. CherylW> like on my page Jean> Your banner shows up on other people's pages at random. JL> Yes, I saw that link exchange thing on Geocities and didn't read it well eno ugh to see what to do to get into it. But I wanted it for the Wel. Gossamer> Link exchanges don't tend to be highly useful, I tend get specific lin ks by talking to other people with relavent pages. Jean> The big problem is making a banner that will attract people who don't give a damn about us. Jean> Or think they don't. JL> I don't think that linkexchange alone is worth much. I resist wandering aro und at random. And what we have to offer isn't for someone who's surfing. Jean> Readers--download free fiction here! JL> It takes concentration to figure out what you've stumbled into if you've nev er heard of these novels. Jean> Explore a whole new universe! JL> No, the problem is making them give a damn once they click through to us. Jean> The RPG page should have a banner to attract gamers. KLitman> A lot of people I know frown at S~F and won't bother with S~G Jenn V.> Even -before- I have a product to offer them? Jean> It's going to take thought. KLitman> Role Play on IRC is what JL probably means rather than your game right now > Jenn V. ahs. JL> We don't want the people who frown at SF -- we have nothing to offer them th at they would value. We want those who might like what we have to offer. Jean> So I frown at ads for computer stuff and don't click on them. We're inter ested in people looking for something interesting to read. CherylW> put the word "free" in it and you'll get them to come look;) JL> Yes, we're after the fiction-hungry who can't afford even paperbacks anymore . Jean> Right! KLitman> Free would draw people > Jenn V. shudders. I avoid anything labelled 'free'. Jean> Definitely! Jenn V.> But then, I'm intensely anti-marketer. JL> Free" also implies "amateur" which means "not good" Cherri> Great idea Cheryl JL> Our amateurs are better than most pros Jean> But the WWW has incredible stuff for free. Jenn V.> But how do we let them know it? KLitman> So what is the proper word rather than "free" JL> And our free is not really free. You get hooked and end up writing more for others. Jean> Never mind--the fiction on the sites is free. > Jenn V. grins faintly. For me, there is no proper word. Gossamer> I don't think there is a word Karen, people don't search for "free" o r anything. JL> The DOWNLOAD is free. Jean> If people get hooked into writing, great. > Dancer refuses to click on banner ads of any sort, as a general matter of prin ciple. Download time for the banner itself, usually. Jenn V.> To hook me, have a well-written description in the search engine descri ption, and be well-placed in search engines. > Dancer prefers to encourage people to advertise using text. JL> Or whatever creative talent they're developing. There's room for all. Jean> Yes, we ARE working on the search engines. Cherri> I agree. I never click on Banners because they are just an annoyance. Jean> This is NOT instead of search engines. Gossamer> Personally I'd be disappointed if we had banners on it. I can't stand them. Jenn V.> SO. Do we want an annoyance in our site? JL> We need the Geocties banner ads for those who already recognize what this is and have been searching stores for the novels. Jean> This is IN ADDITION. JL> We need the search-engine jiggering for those who are searching for good fic tion. Jean> Well, then, everyone will have to move off Geocities soon. Gossamer> Those people, JL, can FIND it in a search enging. People who know the words "Sime~Gen JL> How do we go about this? What's our next move? > Jenn V. is just asking. Jean> They are starting to require ads--your choice as webmaster: full-screen a ds before each or your pages or little banners on your pages. KLitman> So what's the solution? JL> You may know but have forgotten until you see it in print again. We're a tw enty year old series. > Jenn V. knows, Jean. And is annoyed at Geocities, but thats life. Gossamer> There are plenty of other free websites than Geocities, and lots of th em -don't- require ads. > Jenn V. would put little banners on the page, just to avoid the bigawful ones. JL> So I say we take the link exchange, and build out from there. But we need a plan. Jean> We need to get out there and reach new people, and also people who will re member S~G fondly, but would never put it in a search engine. CherylW> we might as well....they wouldn't be so popular if no one was using the m Dancer> . Jenn V.> Assuming we take search engines as a given, and awfulbanners as a given , here's what I'd do.... RMGirBRB> And happily, GeoCities will stop requiring the ads for the CZ website soon. It's under GeoPlus Gossamer> Like spam mail, Cheryl? CherylW> need a short hook, something to grab the attention CherylW> heh Jenn V.> I'd try to get us placed on other SF pages. RMGirBRB> I'm sorry, I gotta run. Someone please email me the address of the lo g. Happy New Year!! Dancer> Hmm. Something seems to have lost the plot. Let me know if this makes it through. *** RMGirBRB has left! Jean> Other SF pages run putrid reviews of our work. *** Dancer has left! Jean> Most other SF writers hate Jacqueline and me. Jean> Not personally, but our writing. *** has left! Jenn V.> So not writers. Fans? *** Dancer has arrived from anaconda.brisnet.org.au! *** KLitman has left! Jean> The big-ego male fans with the best websites hate us equally. *** has left! Dancer> Right. I think I know where to look for the bug at least. > Jenn V. groans. > Jenn V. leans back and thinks. Gossamer> Personal Opinion Alert: If you want to get fans in, try to get people with stuff like Site101.com and those areas to review you. Get links on other people's SF pages. *** KLitman has arrived from 202-126-116.ipt.aol.com! Jean> We don't do hard science. CherylW> would it hurt to ask? Jean> Fans of hard technical science tend to make the best websites and know how to rule the search engines. CherylW> who knows..they might shock you KLitman> My page froze, I missed a lot CherylW> the worst they can do is say no KLitman> Any solution yet > Jenn V. points to a fan of hard technical science who knows how to make good w ebsites and rule search engines. > Jenn V. points to Dancer. Same person. > Gossamer points to another one. Me :) Jean> Find those sites for us--if they let you review, review us. Cherri> LOL Jean> Sure there are exceptions. Jean> If we want numbers, though, we have to hit the rules, not the exceptions. > Jenn V. nods. I guess so. *** JL has left! Jean> There are two things that would really boost us on the WWW. Jenn V.> Yes? Jean> One would be to get any one of our sites on the webring mentioned in a maj or computer magazine. KLitman> How could we do that? Jean> The other would be to get any one of our sites mentioned on CNN or other n ews network. > Jenn V. murmurs something about the first being hard enough. Jean> We need to find the right hook. KLitman> My local paper asks for recommended sites and I send ours into them whi ch they never published Jean> We have all sorts of people with all sorts of knowledge among us. *** JL has arrived from pmb23.ucs.net! KLitman> I mention the Ring and the content Jean> We are six degrees of separation from world-wide fame. KLitman> What should I tell them..I can send it in as my maiden name instead Jenn V.> I wonder if having the technical stuff specially written for us could b e the hook? Jean> What we don't know is what those four links between are! CherylW> a short hook to capture the attention and make them curious:) Jean> Jenn--try that! Jenn V.> HOW?! Jenn V.> What I know about marketing you can write on my little fingernail.. in twelve point type. Jean> Write an article? Jenn V.> Uh. How about you let me write an RPG and write programs, and find some one who knows marketing like I know C? Jean> How about a how-to article on making your own specialty search engine, wit h "See the one I built at---" > Jenn V. ums. I could do that, I guess... JL> We don't have many among us who are in business. JL> We do have a publicist. JL> But her specialty is radio. Jean> Don't look at me--I've tried business and failed spectacularly. *** Anne has left! > Jenn V. points at the publicist. Her. Get her. JL> Not marketing or advertising. KLitman> But the idea would be the same anyway, wouldn't it Jenn V.> But yes, I can throw together a 'how to write a search engine' article. JL> Sime~Gen apparently has little appeal among those who run businesses. Jean> We're not selling "how to succeed in business." Jean> If we were, we'd have a thousand hits a day. JL> No, we're selling Sime~Gen -- KLitman> So what do we write to reach more people...my recommendation to the new spaper never got printed Jean> The problem is how to adapt the methods of selling computer components to selling S~G. CherylW> you trick the people into believing they're buying what they want:) *** Anne has arrived from pmb3.ucs.net! Jean> Is anyone willing to start a weekly electronic newsletter? CherylW> package the ad up real pretty...to get them in Jean> This takes dedication. CherylW> and then they come find out this is what they really want:) Jenn V.> I'm NOT Jean> The idea is to have a webpage where people who are mildly interested in S~ G but not enough to subscribe to the listserv sign up. > Jenn V. grins at Cheryl. "And the few people like me who come along and toss i t out..." JL> That was my idea to let people subscribe to a newsletter or to the PRESS REL EASE page of Wel > Jenn V. nods. Gossamer and I are working on it. JL's given us the content, we' re fiddling the presentation. CherylW> few people being the words there Jean> Once a week, the editor takes the most interesting stuff from listserv dis cussions and edits it down and sends it out to the self-subscribed list. > Jenn V. nods to Cheryl. "But there's a LOT of stuff out there that I specifica lly remember NOT to buy because they pulled a stunt like that on me." Jean> It's not a stunt. You only get the newsletter if you sign up to get the n ewsletter. JL> I just want people to know we're here - and then let them decide if they wan t what we have to offer. Jenn V.> NOnono. Not the newsletter. The newsletter is fine. Jean> It's not like signing a guestbook and suddenly being deluged with unwanted advertising. Jenn V.> It's the stunt Cheryl mentioned about bait-and-switch advertising. JL> It's the "know we're here" part that this year has to address. Jenn V.> Two conversations at once here. JL> We now (or almost now) have an organized group of websites, with several mon ths worth of good reading and stuff on it. Jenn V.> I was objecting to bait-and-switch. The newsletter is a brilliant idea. . if we have someone with the time to do it. JL> Now we need traffic to spread the word about our corner of cyberspace. Jean> The newsletter can even be monthly. KLitman> Count me out, I have a full plate, S`G and otherwise. JL> And of course, we don't have the number of people we need to garner the volu nteers to do all the projects we can see need doing. > Jenn V. is also too busy to commit to that. Jean> I'm on one that is for a scholarly website that changes monthly. JL> Which is why we now need to start spreading the word. JL> So we'll get the people who have the time and inspiration to do projects. Jean> Each month I receive the new table of contents, and can click directly fro m my e-mail to the specific article I want to read. Jean> I really do think a newsletter would be a major help. JL> So I think the next target is to get the Wel site ready to list in link-exch anges and search engines. Jenn -- can you fix up the Wel site so that search en gines will return it when someone is looking for good sf to read? Jean> But none of us have time to do it. *** has left! > Jenn V. nods to JL JL> Who left? Jenn V.> It would be. And it can be added to the list of jobs-to-be done, as kep t in the SMOF boards and on my projects page *** has left! Jenn V.> Someone who hadn't yet registered a nickname. Dancer> Could be one of my older connects. *** KLitman has left! Jenn V.> I do have one idea for adding traffic. JL> OK, then Jenn will add the Search Engine readiness task to the do-list on th e Boards. *** has left! JL> jenn's idea? Jenn V.> We get the news spread among the MUSH/MOO/MUD community. *** KLitman has arrived from 202-126-116.ipt.aol.com! Jean> Great! Who knows how to do that? JL> Good Karen is back. > Jenn V. thought she was adding the newsletter to the boards to do list. Jenn V.> Kennet. Jenn V.> Gossamer and I can nail him and get him started on it. KLitman> no, I'm having trouble at the end of the page JL> Jenn's idea is to use existing networks of fen to spread our word, starting with Kennet's gamer contacts? Jean> Good going! KLitman> it only fills up so far then stops > Jenn V. nods. Exactly. > Jenn V. nods to Karen. Dancer just worked that out, too. JL> Karen - do you have a cache problem? Memory limit? close the software and start over? > Jenn V. sighs. Java isn't implemented how it promises it is. Gah. KLitman> Closing software would disconnect me from AOL *** CherylW has left! Jean> When it did that to me, I just closed the chat, went to bookmarks, and rel oaded the page, KLitman> I mAY not get back on KLitman> I keep reloading the page to be here *** CherylW has arrived from slip-32-100-54-210.la.us.ibm.net! > Dancer is looking for a fix. JL> It's almost four and we've about finished the business and the rest is PARTY TIME. Jean> So much easier than trying 20 min. to reconnect on IRC! KLitman> I may have to stop and make dinner CherylW> huh..I NEVER have trouble getting onto irc JL> I wasn't able to reconnect my IRC connection this last time I got disconnect ed. Jenn V.> Ok. The SMOF boards now include a post about needing a volunteer to maintain a newsletter. Cherri> Dinner!!!! I've only been up for an hour and a half!!!! > Gossamer thinks about breakfast. JL> Cherri was partying last night. Cherri> Me neither. Getting into IRC using AOL and earthlink is a piece of cake . KLitman> My husband is off and he wants dinner at 5:30 p.m. and it's heading tow ards 4 now Jean> I quit my story to do this at the point where Tony was about to seduce Zha g into their first transfer! Against the orders of the Sectuib in Carre. JL> Gossamer, you have to eat right to get well. CherylW> uh huh..shame on you cherri JL> Shame on you Jean - leaving them hanging like that. > Jenn V. blinks at Jean. Come on.. now you have to tell us all about it... Cherri> RPGing until late o'clock. JL> Jean mustn't TELL us at all. Jean> Eventually I'll finish the story. CherylW> Jean! Those poor people! JL> jeanmust write for us. JL> But first she must write for herself. Jean> I'm writing. Nobody's buying. Jenn V.> But she WOULD be writing. It'd wind up in the log... JL> That log is why Jean can't TELL us about this one -- we want to SELL it. > Jenn V. grumps. What we need to do is make an anthology of S~G stories, and get THAT published. JL> I intend to see it published properly. > Jenn V. nods to JL. I know. Jenn V.> I wasn't -serious-. Jenn V.> But I'm semi-serious about the anthology. Jean> Anthologies are even harder to sell than novels. Jean> Damn the market! Jean> Shen the market! JL> The FARRIS CHANNEL project is designed to drive a wedge back into paper publishing if any still exists. > Gossamer wanders off to get FOOD. I shall be back in five minutes. JL> I made dinner this MORNING so i could sit here now and talk. > Jenn V. mms. I have to investigate the technological alternatves. KLitman> I had a house to repair -- I was lucky to make LUNCH JL> I want to see the web publishing market come into existence, but first everyone has to have the machinery and access. KLitman> Bruce is home, he wants to eat when HE wants to Jean> We need to investigate that machine XLibris has that can produce an actual book that can be sold at a profit for $18.00. JL> Yes, I know about husbands, and he deserves FOOD you know. > Jenn V. waves to Karen. *** Jean has left! *** Who updated *** has left! *** Who updated > Jenn V. NODS to Jean. With that, we could definately manage paper publishing. KLitman> I'll have him start cooking, he's not broken JL> ooops lost Jean *** Jean has arrived from 1! *** Who updated JL> Hi Jean! Missed you. CherylW> huh Jean> Had to reload again. CherylW> my family took one look at me sitting here at the computer..and next thing I know...all three are in the kitchen cooking for themselves! > Jenn V. NODS to Jean. With that, we could definately manage paper publishing. Jean> There's some kind of cache limit, but at least it's a big one. > Jenn V. grins at Cheryl. Trained. > Jenn V. sighs. Dancer's looking into the cache limit. JL> Dancer comes in handy. > Dancer has taken a copy of the code, and is fiddling. Gossamer> (Jenn V: if you have a spare bit of concentration could you hop onto SYE?) JL> For those who don't know, Dancer is Jenn's husband and he's a programmer too. He also read S~G. Jean> I mentioned the XLibris machine to a friend, who promptly said, SFWA should get one! Jenn V.> Gossamer> if I do that, I contaminate the log. Unless I open another SSH window. Jean> Oh, terrific--more competition that would utterly refuse to publish anything by Jacqueline or me! Gossamer> okay jenn, nevermind. i'll email you :) Jenn V.> Maybe we need an SFWWA? JL> No, SFWA publishing members stuff would be vanity press. Gossamer> SFWWA/.. Gossamer> ?? JL> The trick of publishing is not printing -- the trick is DISTRIBUTION. Jenn V.> SF Women's Wa Jenn V.> Yes JL> SFFWA is the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America Jean> But books we know how to sell on the WWW. JL> and it's the prof organization Jean and I belong to. Jean> Contract with Amazon.com. Dancer> It is to be noted that most popular computer systems have dtp/typesetting software that can be hooked to machinery to make print-ready plates for printers from most standard word-processor document formats. It's about a $10,000 initial outlay (depending on the type of plates you need to produce), but many MANY places use these because it cuts cost of plate manufacture to near zero. JL> It has a lot of problems. It was founded by damon knight, right after he founded the N3F > Dancer has no idea why printing costs are so high as it is. JL> PRINTING costs are going up, but they're not high. It's DISTRIBUTION that 's high. Jean> Plate manufacture isn't really the problem. Dancer> Gotcha. Cost is typically a buck per 200 page paperback to produce. Jean> On-demand publishing is obviously the wave of the future. CherylW> you know, Ingram started/is starting a publishing company aren't they...? for the web? Jenn V.> On-Demand publishing is what Jean and JL want access to. JL> Yes, definitely on-demand publishing and that's what this guy who runs LIGHTWORKS is doing. *** logCB2 has arrived from xanadu.io.com! *** Who updated Jean> IFF Ingram is doing on-demand publishing, how do we persuade them that our work is worth even their non-effort? JL> He's aiming at an advertising web-based model, with on-demand publishing for those who want a paper book he's posted to the web. Jean> What surfer/readers want is a guarantee of quality. CherylW> hook them in...with all the websites, etc...I would think a ondemand type place would definitely take a second look Jean> The problem with XLibris is that any quality work will be lost in a morass of vanity stuff. JL> Yes, we've been through this before on the List. JL> We do need the imprimatur of a quality operation. Jean> In no time, all such sites will be looked at with a jaundiced eye. JL> That's what publishers really do -- they're risking money on presenting an i tem. JL> So they work hard to up the quality. CherylW> yeah > Gossamer really wants to get rich and set up that version of Xlibris for repri nts and published authors only!! Jean> Yes! JL> But then other things happen, and the "game" changes -- to sell people any s hlock just to make a profit. Jean> Not if we are in control. Anne> Sorry, but I've got to go. Readya all soon. Jenn V.> Dancer has mentioned a 40K system which he thinks would allow what we'r e after. > Jenn V. waves to Anne. Jean> Bye, Anne JL> bye Anne CherylW> bye Anne *** Anne has left! JL> 40K what does that mean? Jenn V.> $40K JL> ah, money not K's. Jean> If a group of us are stockholders and actually vote, we can keep quality c ontrol. Dancer> A recent British documentary stated that it was now more economical to p roduce print runs of a few hundred to a few thousand, than to do a hundred thous and. JL> Actually, as an investment that's not a whole lot for a businessman who can get a bank loan. Jenn V.> I didn't think so. It's beyond -our- reach... JL> In the US the smaller printruns are more economical because of the tax law. Jenn V.> But not necessarily, if we had a handy business who wants it.. Jean> Are you guys really seriously serious? JL> You don't use your OWN money to start a business. You borrow it. Jean> I have $40,000. > Jenn V. blinks. Jenn V.> Dancer is really seriously serious. KLitman> Or you get investors who believe in your business potential to back you CherylW> be back..memory problems > Dancer mentally figures cost of paper, plates, ink, solvents, developer, maint enance and wages.. *** CherylW has left! Jean> We need a thoroughly researched prospectus. Jenn V.> Of course, the $40K is just the -system-. It's not the paper, plates, i nk, etc.. Jean> Exactly. JL> or living expenses while you develop the business. > Dancer winces. It's the plates that hurt. Umm..The 40K figure is for a plateless system. Jean> We are probably talking $100,000 here. JL> But if you have investors putting up capital, you can GET a bank loan. KLitman> I'm going to have to reload Jean> That I don't have. *** KLitman has left! JL> You have to incorporate -- or whatever they call it in England. Jean> LTD > Jenn V. leans her head back and thinks. *** KLitman has arrived from 202-126-116.ipt.aol.com! Jenn V.> We need to find out what it costs. This is, from his description, for w hat amounts to a desktop computer and a laser printer, on steroids. Jenn V.> I don't know if it includes collation and binding. > Dancer jots. 35c per plate. Each plate does 16 pages...Double-sided, that's 32 . 250 page book is..umm.. 7 sheets of paper. 7 plates. Jean> What about binding? JL> Then you put the deal together, create the business plan (which they teach y ou to do in business school, but there are people on the web who teach you to st art businesses and build a business plan. Then you go to the bank, and get mone y. Dancer> Duh. 14 plates. Jean> What about color covers? > Gossamer is halfway through a Small Business Management course and knows about business plans. That's the first subject! KLitman> I got a loan for Cz from the bank to buy a copier which was more risky than your project. CZ never made a lot of money JL> Aha, I forgot Gossamer's website said she was into stuff like that. *** CherylW has arrived from slip166-72-130-229.ga.us.ibm.net! KLitman> They'd support you if you have a solid plan more than they helped me JL> Well, give it some thought. JL> Fiction needs a new model. Desperately. The next concept like the 'dime no vel' or 'gothic' will make a mint worldwide. Jenn V.> If you banded together with other authors of your quality and subgenre, you'd have a package to distribute. Jean> This is something I am willing to invest in, but I have to be satisfied th at you are really serious, and that you can actually do it. Dancer> Rough estimate: A 250 page paperback will cost about 4 dollars to produc e, assuming you only have a general printing house (say one that normally does b rochures or forms, and not books). A dedicated one would be less than a quarter of that. This is not counting four-colour press and cardstock for covers. KLitman> I'm going to sign off in about 20 minutes..... *** has left! JL> But AUTHORS don't usually have investment capital. Jenn V.> Did I mention that Dancer has done printing before? Jean> I'm not interested in a new publishing company. Jean> Not for new books. JL> Printing is SUPPORT for the web-based distribution model. This would take a programmer. Jean> I'm interested in the reprint idea, where we can rope in major authors' ou t-of-print work. > Jenn V. whistles innocently. > Jenn V. nods to Jean. > Jenn V. whistles off-key. We don't know any programmers, do we? Jean> Gee, I know, hmm, I think it's three programmers. KLitman> We know at least a couple........ Dancer> Alternatively, I have a workable idea for a pay-per-view online library, using security and encryption techniques from electronic commerce. KLitman> hmmmmm *** Cherri has left! Jean> I don't think it will work without the print option. Jenn V.> Which has limited application, but if that's wanted he's one of the guy s to do it. > Gossamer hides behind Jenn again. Programming? What's that? JL> electronic commerce? I don't know enough about Dancer. Jean> It's EASY to prepare electronic books. JL> but not easy to market them via the web. > Jenn V. grins. "His last job was writing the security software for a company w hich handled money-across-the-net." Jean> Security and encryption are not that expensive. Jean> You're right, Jenn, people want paper books. *** Cherri has arrived from dwan3-pool039.pw-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net! JL> The idea is that we need programmers who can think creatively like nonprogra mmers. KLitman> I've got to cook for a hungry husband. Have a great Year all. I'll be in touch Dancer> Essentially, the idea is that the text can be transmitted to a known use r (and charged by the page, for example) to a program that (likely) disallows pr inting (at the author's option) in such a way that the material cannot be interc epted or duplicated. Jean> I just realized one major snafu: > Jenn V. peers at JL. Those come expensively. > Jenn V. waves to Karen! Jean> Bye Karen KLitman> Take care all, I'm gone!! *** KLitman has left! CherylW> bye karen JL> And we have to create a way to DELIVER FICTION to fiction-hungry people. Ju st what they want, with little or no risk to them in terms of what they invest b efore knowing it's what they want. Jean> Books mailed from Australia to the rest of the world. JL> Bye \ Jean> No, Jacqueline, we cannot give a money-back guarantee, or they will use us as a lending library. JL> It's the programmers view of the web as DELIVERY SYSTEM that we need, and th e businessman's view of the process of staying legal. Jenn V.> So centre the printing somewhere more central to the english-speaking w orld Dancer> An american programmer can't do such things because of the american cryp tography laws. Australia is somewhat more enlightened (at present) Jean> Population distribution is against us. JL> When someone browses a bookshelf they can pick the book they want by nibblin g at it, but you can't read a whole book standing in front of a rack. Jean> We start bringing other people in, you do your job, zap it to the folks wh o are supposed to print and mail--and it doesn't happen. JL> Yes, that's what happened with the Tarot book. Jean> This is a major obstacle. JL> But it happens in publishing all the time. It's figured into the business m odel. Jenn V.> Hang on. I seem to have dropped the plot somewhere. Jenn V.> Where are we up to? JL> How to deliver physical objects to the customer. Jean> The farther production gets from the three hungry people in Australia, the less likely books are to be sent out in a reasonable time. Jenn V.> Ah Jean> So move to Carolina, already! > Jenn V. peeks her head up, grinning. "So move us?" JL> And a second thread which is where my head is going -- how to market read-an d-toss-fiction -- the new Dime Novel. CptButton> BTW, I've set up where I will put the log temporarily after the chat: Jenn V.> I'd love to! I'm waiting on a couple of things. Dancer> A serious question. Put your thinking caps on for this one: Jean> That's that reader with reprintable cards that has been around for years b ut no one will buy. Jenn V.> #1. Dancer gets a job in Carolina. Jenn V.> #2. Cash and a greencard Jenn V.> So why won't they, Jean? What's wrong with it? Jean> I think people already have too many gadgets. http://www.io.com/~button/1_jan_98_chat.txt logCB2> http://www.io.com/~button/1_jan_98_chat.txt JL> The reader machines that first came out were illegible. Jean> If I'm packing my laptop or palmtop, I don't want a reader as well. Dancer> Assume you had a web-based system, with a little program or plug-in as a book-reader, and a virtual 'library card', which you could pay money into (by s ome unspecified means, at this point. Maybe posting a cheque or money order). Sy stem would allow books or parts of books to be purchased at some small cost (a c ent a page? Half a cent?).. JL> Capt Button --post the URL to the List. It'll come back online soon. > Jenn V. leans back and thinks. JL> K. applet doesn't wan n' t mJenn V.> Cap: also post it to the SMOF boards e to paste it for some reason. logCB2> JL> K. applet doesn't want me to paste it for some reason. Dancer> The pages would be encrypted by some means, so that they could not be id ly replicated, nor duplicated by the reciever (printing included, except for old faithful, the screen-dump). Jean> There are already websites trying to sell books for download. > Dancer could prototype such a system in a couple days from starting to put ser ious effort into it. Jean> None of them seem to be very successful. CptButton> http://www.io.com/~button/1_jan_98_chat.txthttp://www.io.com/~button/ 1_jan_98_chat.txt http://www.io.com/~button/1_jan_98_chat.txt http://www.io.com/ ~button/1_jan_98_chat.txtSMOF Boards? Jean> It's probably just too soon. CptButton> Shen! Jean> Or it may be that the generation that reads is nontechnical, JL> It's commercial appeal to the fiction consumer that has to be addressed by a creative programmer with business acumen. *** Jean has left! > Jenn V. nods. "I think the readers would be successful if:" *** Jean has arrived from 1! *** Dancer has left! *** CptButton has left! *** Dancer has arrived from anaconda.brisnet.org.au! *** logCB has left! Jenn V.> They were about the size of a gameboy, they came in a range of colours, and they were -simple- and straightforward to usem and easy to read on. Jean> Had to reload again--where was I? Jenn V.> And if they were well marketed *** CptButton has arrived from crl2.crl.com! Jean> It may be that the generation that reads is nontechnical, while the younge r folk want animation, games, etc. Jenn V.> Dancer had made a proposal. *** CherylW has left! Jean> What proposal? *** CherylW has arrived from slip166-72-130-229.ga.us.ibm.net! JL> Am I still online here? Jean> You're on. CherylW> yeah Jean> The chat has slowed. CptButton> What are the SMOF boards? Jenn V.> http://www.tertius.net.au/simegen/boards CptButton> thx Jean> We need to think seriously about the reprint proposal. > Jenn V. nods. Jean> Equipment and distribution are the major problems. Jean> Just printed sheets are not enought. Jenn V.> Equipment may not be all that major a problem.. it exists or it doesn't . Jean> The books must appear like books. *** Gossamer has left! Dancer> I personally would be willing to pay-per-view books (or parts thereof).. .But on the proviso that I was not paying as much as I would be for the physical object (which I can retain, and reread, or throw around or burn). That seems to be where most of the books-on-the-www things fall down. They charge similarly t o the price for the physical object. Jean> Exists at what cost? > Jenn V. nods. If it exists at a reasonable cost, then we can do it. If not, we can't. Jean> But we know that the experience of other pay-per-view companies indicates little money to be made that way. Dancer> If I can blow a buck to read a novel, I'll read many. If I blow $15, I'l l probably hardly ever do so. *** JL has left! Jean> That's YOU, Dancer, not the general public. *** JL has arrived from pmb23.ucs.net! Jean> In fact, many companies are now putting their entire books on-line. Dancer> If it's $0.25, you couldn't keep me away. The WWW is volume and percenta ges. Look at amazon.com, for example. Their operating profit margin is 0.5% per book. Jean> The idea being that people will get sick of reading on screen and buy the book. Jean> Amazon.com is not pay-per-view. Jean> You get physical books through the mail. JL> That idea works. I want books I Know will be worth the price and storage sp ace. JL> I used to read books at the library then go buy them. People have done that with Sime~Gen. Jean> That's why the reprint-only idea. *** Ricky has arrived from penguin.glasswings.com.au! *** Ricky is now known as 'Gossamer' CptButton> M.A.R. barker has a lot of his old gaming work on the web as sharewar e (shareread) OTOT, he isn't getting much in fees for 'em. > Jenn V. nods. Reprint-only works. JL> Oh, Gossamer -- I wondered why you hadn't commented. Jean> Yes--people do read something at the library and then buy it. The read on -line principle seems to work the same way. > Gossamer fell offline. What did I miss?? Jean> Same old chit-chat JL> I don't know -- I got pushed off too - full cache I think. Gossamer> Ahhh Jenn V.> And that's where Sime~Gen comes in handy. We can give people the fanfic to read, and if we can get the paper books in print, we can cover that too. Jean> Right! Jean> But that's not where we start. JL> Building reputation is where to start. Quality. Vetted quality. Jean> As a matter of fact, should we get the machine, we rent it out to S~G, und er its own imprint. > Jenn V. grins at Jean. JL> That's a thought. Jean> We don't want whatever imprint we choose immediately discredited by critic s who have hated S~G for years and will be only to happhy to write how lousy the books are all over again. Jean> We don't want Jacqueline's name or mine fronting the business. Jean> We won't get SFWA members to give us their books if they think we are doin g this to get them to support our putting our own books back in print. *** has left! Jean> We will have to be silent partners. JL> You see, when you start thinking of capital at risk, you have to think diffe rently than when you think of the objective- delivering a GOOD READ. > Jenn V. runs a hand through her hair. Yes. Jean> If we don't do anything suspicious, there won't be any reason for people w ho hate our work to go looking to see who the stockholders are. Jenn V.> And if we're talking a physical product, Dancer and Gossamer and I can' t be expected to be there. Australia's too remote for the project to happen here . Gossamer> Don't take this wrong, but is there really such a conspiracy theory as you are all saying?? I'm finding it a bit weird ... Jean> No, not a conspiracy. Jean> No one gives a damn about us. Jean> No one is out to get us. JL> Jean sees things differently than I do. Jean> They just think we died and should stay buried. JL> I'm a glass-is-half-full person. She sees the empty half. I see all the pe ople who LOVE S~G and that's all I think is important. JL> But when capital is at risk, you have to look at both halves. Jean> And I see the people who think S~G is a wretched product that should be ke pt off the market. JL> I never pay any much attention to them. Jean> Some of the reactions to our books were unbelievable. Dancer> Funny, I feel the same way about 80% or more of what comes out of hollyw ood. JL> I believed them JL> Well, S~G is DIFFERENT from what publishing really wants. JL> It basically challenges the unconscious premises these people hold dear. *** Kennet has arrived from branch1-5-3.oaktree.net! JL> So it hits a nerve, and people who HATE it really HATE it. JL> Ah, Hi Kennet -- you came in at the wrong point in this discussion. *** has left! Jean> Our reputation is such that I get rejections that say things like, "This i s very well written, but obviously not for our market." Kennet> Hi all. I'm new at this sort of chat server so don't pelt me with bad fr uit while I figure out what I'm doing. Gossamer> Kennet! > Jenn V. grins. This is basically the back end of the JAVA chat server Gossamer and I wrote, Ken. Jenn V.> You've come in through the telnet. Jean> And I go, "If you publish sf, why is it obviously wrong for your market?" Kennet> I think the detractors can exercise the right to go away and look at oth er things if we scare them :) > Jenn V. wrinkles her nose at Jean. You're kidding. *** Kaas has arrived from 201-142-76.ipt.aol.com! Gossamer> It's okay Kennet, just pretend it's a MUSH - it'll grok : and " and WH O and QUIT for you. Kaas> Shen, FINALLY Jean> Nope. I have the rejections. Jenn V.> Hi Kaas CherylW> finally! CherylW> hi Kaas! Jean> Hi, Kaas, hi, Kennet! Kaas> Hello All Kennet> Nice to meet all of you in a non-e mail format. > Jenn V. nods to Jean, and sighs. Kaas> My art computer just made a small mushroom cloud JL> Kaas you won an award -- the Golden YoYo this time for the T-Shirts to World con and Darkover. CptButton> Greetings Kaas. Kaas> No kidding. CptButton> Greetings kennet. JL> Kennet you didn't win one, but we're inventing them for what you do. JL> We had to invent a whole new award for Jenn and Gossamer and Mike. Kennet> I'm a button-counter, and a people magnet. JL> We call it the TECHTON AWARD. Kaas> Well there may be no more art from me for a while unless this is a lot bet ter than it looks. JL> Then we discussed publicizing the websites to build traffic, which is our ne xt stage. So far we've been a well kept secret. > CptButton is a people anti-magnet... JL> You were elected to help publicize. Jean> Don't you have your equipment insured? > Jenn V. blinks at Kaas. What happened? Jean> Reminds me--have to send in the money for mine this weekend. JL> What Kaas - this what this? Better than what looks? Kaas> Insured? Hah! try getting insurance when you live with roommates in San Fr ancisco. Unless you've known the person for years they won't do it Kaas> (the insurance companies) Kaas> I think it's a hard drive meltdown Gossamer> Ouch ouch ouch Jean> I buy a service contract--whatever goes wrong is fixed in 24 hours. CherylW> oh no:( Jean> Yeow--hope it's backed up! Kaas> I just paid the sucker off 2 weeks ago too...a massive payment... it figur es Jean> Did it have the standard 3-year warranty? *** Cherri has left! Jenn V.> Then it's still under warranty..? Kaas> It might be. My boyfriend shipped it for me and he's really nosy and I'm t hinking he made a zip drive back up just for the heck of it.. if I can get him t o admit it then my butt may be saved :) Kaas> No.. it is used.. bought it from a former employer *** Cherri has arrived from dwan3-pool039.pw-ca-us.dialup.earthlink.net! Kennet> I had computer trouble too, but it was just my modem exploding into frie dness as it tried to ascend to some higer level of evolution. I just went to my old modem. JL> It's a MAC isn't it? Jean> Buy one of the $89 zip drives floating around everywhere. I did, and it g ives me no end of peace of mind. JL> I have zip and tape and still no peace! Mind or otherwise. > CherylW needs to get a tape backup Jean> Well, on being able to recreate my hard drive it gives me peace of mind! Not on the rest of my life. Kaas> First things first... I only just got the machine paid off, and I wasn't g oing to buy upgrades before that happend Jean> Don't get tape--the zip drive is very cheap and much faster and easier. JL> It's finding TIME to recreate what should never have crashed that's unpeacef ul. Jean> I used to have tape backup, and never found the time to do it. JL> Tape is for backing the WHOLE thing, zip for data. CherylW> will it autmatically backup...like a tape though JL> I have 6 GIG of harddrive, -- no way zip or jazz could handle it. Kennet> I want a Zip drive, myself. Everyone's said one really helps. And i have lost work files before, due to personal carelessness...I don't backup enough ei ther. Jean> In theory, should I have a crash, I can put the whole thing back in less t han two hours. I would really prefer not to have to test it! JL> Yea, zip has neat software Gossamer> I got a zip drive last week, when I make it work it'll be neat :) Kaas> I could use a Zip drive because my printing house can't accept large image files by email but they can take ZIPs Kaas> So it would be dual purpose > Jenn V. is browsing a whole pageful of printing-press supply companies, and ha s too little idea of printing to have any idea what I'm looking at .. and none o f them have prices. Jean> Mine worked right out of the box, and on Win95 it works in the background while I continue writing. JL> Zip is plugnplay Jean> I doubt the book-on-demand machine uses standard printing supplies. JL> And it plugs into your parallel port with a plug in the back for your printe r. Gossamer> Yeah, I know that :) But nothing's plug and play around here, it take s fiddling. JL> Zip worked fine for me. JL> I can port files from one computer to the other with it. JL> The tape drive is built in. Jean> Hey--you know how to pay for an on-demand book machine? Jenn V.> How? JL> I have another tape drive that I can port files with too, but it's obsolete already. Only 1 gig. Jean> Rent it out to anybody at all! Jean> That is, rent time on it. > Jenn V. nods. "That'd do it." Jenn V.> Vanity presses would love it. Jean> I am assuming that this thing works from marked-up computer files. JL> In other words start a printshop business.? Jenn V.> I'd assume so. Jean> But not in a storefront. Kaas> Probably easiest for those companies that already have another business in operation... tack the printer on as an extra at first until it can pay for itse lf JL> No, for web publishers. > Jenn V. nods to Kaas Jean> I wonder how good this thing is. Jean> Can it do charts and color? Jenn V.> I have NO idea what it is. I'm swearing at my husband for bringing it u p without telling me, and trying to FIND it. JL> What's the URL? Jean> Printing literature for small companies would be a good deal. Kennet> Gwyn just asked me to pass on greetings from her...she is here, but we o nly have one computer. Jenn V.> I don't have a URL. That's what I'm looking for. > Gossamer waves and sends hugs to Gwyn. JL> Hi Gwyn!!! Jean> Where you only need fifteen copies for your stockholders' meeting. Kaas> My brother just got published in a book for the first time Dancer> Hi, Gwyn, honey. Jean> Hi, Gwyn JL> What book? JL> Or does it matter? Jenn V.> Although http://www.xantecorp.com/ looks promising Kaas> It is a book of 5 or 6 modules for some roleplaying game.. Cyberpunk maybe Jean> What did he publish? Kaas> His name is the first one on the cover because he's alphabetically first.. Baichtal Jean> Major stuff these days. CherylW> cool;) Kaas> He wrote one of the modules Kaas> He has been published in magazines many times (modules, articles and revie ws) but this is his first time in a book Jean> We're discussing how to afford one of those machines that can print and bi nd a single book at reasonable cost. Jenn V.> The platemaker they have looks good. Jean> I don't think plates can be a step in a single-book process. JL> Yeah, I'm looking at it. I think that's what we're talking about. Jenn V.> But they do also have the printers. JL> Maybe you save the plates in case you want another later? > Jenn V. shrugs. I dunno. Jenn V.> And no, plates wouldn't be a step in a single-book process Jean> If it's 50 cents per plate, that's $5.00 per ten pages, or $50.00 for a 10 0-page book you sell for $18.00. Jean> That's no way to make a profit. Jenn V.> No. Jenn V.> I'd say the single-book involves a laser printer, not a plates printer. Jenn V.> The plates-printer might work for a 100-book run, or a 1000-book run Jean> Yes--it has to be laser/fax technology. Kaas> There isn't any such thing as a free lunch... somebody were to buy one of these and start a publishing company from the ground up they'd still have to wor k long thankless hours and not be able to afford what they like > Jenn V. nods. Jean> Even there, laser printing is about 5 cents a page, so printing only of a 100-page book is $5.00. Jean> We're thinking of copying XLibris, but with only previously trade publishe d books. Gossamer> I've seen the start of three small businesses in my time, and it's not something I'd be afraid to do if I was healthy. Jean> Guaranteed level of quality, and the author does most of the work. > Jenn V. watches Dancer stare into space. Dancer> The math was a little skewed there. It's actually $2.50, since you can g et two pages a side on a sheet. Jean> Okay, $2.50 for printing only, but then there is collating and binding. Jean> Printers do collate today--but what about binding and trimming? Jean> And the cover. People will want color covers. Jean> How do you do all that at a price that allows a profit? Jean> Glitch. Dancer> Trimming takes a few seconds only with madame guillotine (the mechanical kind..I used to drive one), about 60 seconds. If you know a print-finisher well enough to smile sweetly at him, you can get a print-run of a hundred or a thous and done in a couple minutes. Jean> Back in a minute. *** Jean has left! Dancer> Binding for a paperback is aquadhere, two bricks, a short wait and then more aquadhere and covers. Overnight. Kennet> Goss? I'd help, with the small-buisness thing, if needed. I am neither h ealthy nor what would mundanely count as sane but I have fire. Kaas> Yes, but if I recall your definition of profit is not making a living wage , it's making a large profit... right? *** Jean has arrived from 1! > Dancer repeats for Jean. Jean> I'd settle for a living wage. Jean> Basically, we're looking for a way to afford to put our own books back in print. Dancer> Binding for a paperback is aquadhere, two bricks, a short wait then more aquadhere and a cover. Overnight. The cover is 4 colour printing and cardstock, alas, and will cost a little. $0.50 per, in quantity, I should think. > Gossamer hrms. I'd work for nix for a while, I do now after all. But stuff I can do flat on my black. Jean> Quantity is the problem. We're talking _one_. Dancer> How cheesy do you want the cover? JL> Or one at a time, anyway. Jean> Even if all books had the same format for the cover, title and author woul d be different on each. JL> And they have to be different if they're classics. Jean> We have to compete with XLibris covers, which none of us have seen yet. Kennet> I'll do all I do for love. I could give a darn about money...I'm eating, I have a place to live and Net access. JL> People know what the covers used to looklike. Gossamer> If these are reprints, they already HAVE covers, remember. Or at leas t cover art. Dancer> B&W printing on cardstock is the cheapest. You can use a good photocopie r to make it. JL> YOu can't afford to BUY that cover art. JL> You can't copy things you don't own. Jean> Right--authors don't own rights to cover art. JL> B&W not acceptable for highprofile books being reprinted. Dancer> IIRC, cover art is sort of 'leased'. Gossamer> Ahh. I didnt know that, Jean. Jean> And b/w on card stock won't satisfy the customers. Gossamer> Could I suggest that somebody buy at least one Xlibris book so we can have a look at it? Gossamer> There's gotta be at least one in their range that's worthwhile. THen we can SEE what they look like, quality, covers, whatever. JL> People would buy these books because they know they like them and want to ke ep them. So package is vital. Kaas> Could get the covers mass produced somewhere and keep them in a box to put on books as needed CherylW> packaging is very important...the coverart will make a big difference Jean> If we start to have some idea that we can do this, we certainly do have to see what the competition offers. Dancer> Well, a paperback _is_ cardstock, by definition. 275GSM semigloss. Getti ng the art on it in colour would be a nuisance. It _is_ a four-colour job. There _are_ laser-printers that will do colour onto cardstock that heavy, but they ar e not cheap. Jean> How do you mass produce covers for one copy each of a thousand different b ooks? Gossamer> Remember, we aren't selling these on coverart - unlike most books. We 're selling them on our web stuff. JL> Kaas, keeping a stock of covers puts you in the tax law that says you pay ta x on unsold warehoused stock. Gossamer> So it's a LOT less important than usually. Dancer> Alas, Goss, covers are packaging...people expect good packaging, even fo r things they buy sight-unseen for content. Jean> If customers are not satisfied, they won't come back. Jean> If the competition has cheesy covers, we can have cheesy covers. JL> Or spread the word. Kaas> Yeah well, having many many printed of a single sheet is not that expensiv e per each... and it wouldn't be a lot of tax if they weren't worth a lot to beg in with Jenn V.> How about: if the competition has cheesy covers, we have understated bu t classical covers. Jean> If the competition has four-color original art, we have to have four-color original art. JL> A little less cheesy than the competition -- distinctively cheesy. Gossamer> There's no WAY Xlib can have original art. But point taken. Dancer> Okay..so it looks like the operation would need two things: One good B&W laser printer with good toner durability and a decent turn of speed, and a high -quality colour laser printer capable of dealing with heavy cardstock. > Gossamer nodnods to Dancer, "Costings?" Dancer> (trimming is separate here) Jean> You're assuming hand binding. Jenn V.> And something to collate, trim and bind. Dancer> I am. I've always bound such things by hand. at the print-shop that I wo rked in, we used no other way. Jean> It MUST look professional when finished. Jean> I have seen some truly gorgeous fanzines, but we cannot have a fanzine loo k. Gossamer> If Dancer says hand-binding'll work, that's good. We can add machiner y later if necessary, but keeping startup machinery costs down is IMPORTANT. We already have a stack of expensive stuff to buy. Dancer> This was printing operating manuals for a bank. Dancer> The technique is thus: > Kaas throws up her tentacles and goes and sits in a corner Jenn V.> Kaas? Jenn V.> You ok? Kaas> Yeah > Jenn V. oks. Dancer> Place printed matter (squared) protruding over the edge of a bench. Plac e a sheet of cardboard on top (and a couple bricks). Paint it with a paintbrush dipped in aquadhere. Let it dry. Paint a little on the spine of the cover. Apply cover. Let dry. Done. Gossamer> What's up Kass? Jean> Sounds doable. Dancer> Book publishers do the same thing, but with a machine that minimizes the wait, drying-times and bricks. JL> That type of binding won't LAST and people buying such books want it to LAST . > Jenn V. laughs softly > Jenn V. repairs her paperbacks the same way. Jean> But there's still the distribution problem. Kaas> that's perfect-binding Jenn V.> JL, you really DON'T want to see my copy of Mahogany Trinrose in paperb ack. Jenn V.> Yes. The distribution problem. Dancer> Paperback bindings do _not_ last..It is true. I have some (probably boun d using the paintbrush and brick method...which was in wide use until the late 1 970's) that are starting to go. Dancer> Of course, I have newer ones that have lasted worse. JL> Yeah, but pb was exactly what you paid for. People want to buy reprints to KEEP. Jenn V.> Those would be hardback, and we're starting to talk some expensive equi pment. Jean> If we go to hardcover we add in more expensive stuff. > Dancer can't help you con costing or difficulty for hardbacks. Contact your lo cal chapter of the BookBinder's Guild, and ask them. Dancer> D'oh! JL> If not to KEEP then they'd just download and maybe print out to read and tos s. Kennet> Have we shelved the idea of a CD compilation? Dancer> Why did I not think of them BEFORE??? Jenn V.> OR manual bookbinding with leather and watered-ink facing pages. Jenn V.> Kennet: we're talking about getting things back into paper print. Jenn V.> CD compilations and web distributions are fine, but you can't toss them into your handbag to read on the train. Jean> Hardcover binding ten years ago started at around $15.00 for one copy, dow n to about $5.00 per copy for larger orders. I'm sure it's more now. Dancer> Dig through the phone-book. I'm led to understand that the bookbinder's guild is a worldwide guild. There's a chapter in Brisbane, here. I don't see why there wouldn't be one handy to you folks. Jean> It also took about six weeks. Dancer> One member might be willing to individually do your reprints for a gratu ity. Kaas> Hardbinding is extremely easy to do by hand. Jean> CD compilations of printed matter have proved a marketing disaster. JL> The problem with CD is that formats are changing too fast. You won't have t he TEXT for your grandchildren if the formats change. > Kennet nods to Jenn. Kaas> The only thing that will cost money is the sewing, and if you are careful you can do that cheaply also, with invented tools > Jenn V. nods to JL Jean> Easy but time-consuming. At $20.00 per hour, can we afford a bookbinder o n staff? Kaas> No.. don't pay a union bookbinder, that's crazy Kennet> True, JL...I am dreading all those changes, I can't keep up with 'modern ' technology easily. Jean> As soon as we start hiring staff, we must pay them the going rates. Jean> A workman is worthy of his hire. Kaas> Oh. You are talking hiring staff not doing it yourselfs... that's differen t Kaas> Whenever you start hiring staff the whole profit thing turns... Jean> The person doing you a favor does it at his own convenience, while your bu siness acquires a reputation for lateness. Jean> We began with the discussion of a business that would be supporting three people from the getgo, not a hobby. JL> Don't forget there's a certain cache to "handbound" books. Jenn V.> Three people? Gossamer> We did? Kaas> Well I will be surprised if you can get started at all thinking in terms o f paying people $20/hr > Jenn V. nods to JL Gossamer> We had a bunch of people, including Ken and myself, who are willing to work for a pittance or zero to get this started up. That's a far cry from $20/ hr Dancer> It's been done. There are a couple of quite successful British publisher s working solely in the reprint market, based on that one principle 'Make money from the start'. Jean> Didn't we start a couple of hours ago with the idea that Jenn, Dancer, and Gossamer would be primarily running this dream factory? > Jenn V. blinks. Um. Ok. This is where I missed the plot. > Jenn V. goes and looks for it. Jean> Problem: they are in Australia. Gossamer> I don't need supporting, I get a pension :) Anyway, I couldn't do eno ugh work to be worth paying JL> That's why outsourcing has become so popular. *** JL has left! Jenn V.> I thought we were providing any/all programming expertise required, and someone else was handling the rest. Jean> Problem: most of the world is _not_ in Australia, and doesn't want to pay shipping from Australia or wait for the books to arrive from there. *** JL has arrived from pmb23.ucs.net! Jean> Okay--we start hiring people who don't really have a stake in the business --it's just a job--and it goes right down the drain. Jenn V.> *I* don't see it as a problem that most of the world is not in Australi a. We've got a great country here, partly because of that. Kaas> I have a fairly close acquaintance with a bookbinder that operates out of his basement in San Francisco, with 2 or 3 employees. He was able to keep his ow n expenses reasonably low. Jenn V.> Hey, I wasn't saying I -won't- do it. I love the idea. Kennet> My RLSO has an income. I won't starve if I do what I need to be doing... and he understands me well enough to know how I think/react... Jean> Not a problem for you--a problem for a WWW business. Jenn V.> Yeah. Gossamer> The only problem is mailing costs, right? Kaas> Does that mean anybody buying a book will have to pay postage from Austral ia? Jenn V.> If we do the printing here, yes. Jenn V.> Ergo, we probably can't do the printing here. Jean> We have many problems--that's why we have to discuss it before actually de ciding even to try to create a prospectus. > Jenn V. nods *** CherylW has left! Jenn V.> See, I didn't even THINK of doing the physical side here. JL> I suddenly remembered something I heard on the news. I think there's an out fit like Kinkos that is doing the printing of books local to where it's ordered -- from emailed files. Jenn V.> Because the postage is ridiculous. Kaas> thinking with your laterals, eh? *** CherylW has arrived from slip166-72-130-229.ga.us.ibm.net! > Gossamer dittoes what Jenn said. Doing everything -but- the physical bit here in Aus. Or most of it. Dancer> If the material will stand on it's own, the use of a 'vanity' publisher might work. They're geared to small print-runs. It'd cost more per unit, but you don't have to outlay or do the work yourself. Jean> Yes--printing can be done anywhere. USA Today is printed all over the cou ntry and in Europe. Kaas> What you said, JL, it reminds me of 1-800-Flowers... they send flowers fro m a flower shop in the same town as the person you are giving them to JL> Yes, business model is 1-800-flowers JL> But what they 'send' is a printed item -- like a book or brochure. JL> I can't REMEMBER who's doing this. Or even if it's actually being done, or i s just the wave of the future seen at a tech show somewhere. Kaas> What would be nice would be a national or international cooperative of pri nters/publishers where everybody would send their orders to the network of print ers, and the closest one would do whatever books from whatever publishers Jean> But to begin with we need one place, preferably in the U.S. or Canada, whe re there is equipment to produce ONE copy of a book on demand in a short time at a low price. JL> And reliably. JL> I don't think it's necessary or desirable to be both halves of this business at once. Jean> Reliability is a MAJOR problem. When I tried to run a business, I was at the mercy of independent contractors. Kaas> Sharon Jarvis ahoy! Kaas> Is she coming here? JL> The web half would be enough. > Jenn V. nods. If possible, if we're going to do it, we need to handle as much as possible without contracting it out. Jean> Jacqueline, how can we do the web half without the book half? JL> Sharon is using hired printers, compositors, distributors etc. She's operat ing like a regular Manahattan publishing house --everything is out-sourced excep t editing. *** Kennet has left! Jean> The whole POINT is to put the books back into print. *** Kennet has arrived from branch1-4-2.oaktree.net! Jean> And look what happened to your Tarot book. Kennet> Eep. Windows froze up :( Kennet> WHO JL> How can we do the web half without the print half? By finding a Kinko's lik e operation that's already doing the print half and making a contract with them. Jean> If that happens to Sharon twice more, her distributors will stop trusting HER. JL> That's TRUE -- but Jean it happens in Manhattan publishing all the time. JL> Distributors really don't turn an eyelash at such mixups. Jean> Find the Kinko's. Remember we are talking a complete book, bound and read y to go, single copy, under $10.00. Jenn V.> But we're dealing with retail customers. Jenn V.> Not distributors. JL> the trick of starting a small business is figuring in those costs for gliche s just like Manhattan does -- it's all pre-figured. Jenn V.> But yes, if we're only doing the web part, Dancer and Gossamer and I co uld probably have it ready-to-go within a week of being given the starting gun. Jean> Jenn is right--promise two weeks and make retail customers wait six, and y ou are dead. Especially when they broadcast their dissatisfaction all over the WWW. Jenn V.> .... if you could give us the manuscripts in that time. JL> Part of what's causing Sharon startup problems is that she's TOO SUCCESSFUL -- the distributor keeps wanting more books she can't afford to print. She's th eir top seller in her category. Kaas> She must be undercapitalized Jean> The computer part is the easy part. The glitch is the print books. Jenn V.> Yes. JL> That's the typical mistake any small business makes. Figuring in the capita l for the USUAL delays and snags that plague a going business. Jean> We can't put up a site offering to reprint books when we have no means to reprint books. JL> Sounds like research is in order. > Jenn V. nods. Sounds like. Jean> Sharon should be able to float a small business loan on the basis of the o rders in hand. Most businesses would be delighted to have too many orders! JL> So the business design statement is "A Web-based print-on-demand publisher w ho can provide -- pb for under $10 and/or hc for much more? Jenn V.> I'd say so. Jean> No--the pb is $18.00 to the customer, maximum $10.00 TO US. Jean> However, it's single-copy that will be the problem with printers. JL> I wouldn't want to pay $18 for a pb if it wasn't on acid free paper with a r eally strong cover. Jean> Well, then, let's forget the project. Jenn V.> Let's take the time to find out what it would cost to US. Kaas> Hey, um, do you guys already know about Mary Lou's grandmother? Jenn V.> THEN determine the retail price. Jean> It's not going to happen if you expect what you would get for a 5000 print run for a single copy. JL> Yes, someone mentioned that Mary Lou lost her grandmother and we all ached a wfully for her. CherylW> yeah, got a letter CherylW> her grandmother died? I only knew she was terribly sick Jean> I thought you told me she had died. Jean> Wasn't that on IRC last night? Kaas> Dying, MLM said CherylW> no...no...Kaas? Kaas> She said her grandmother was dying and she had to go there... would be in Tucson for at least a week CherylW> dying CherylW> the irc has been a lifesaver with the list down Jean> Oh--well, it's bad at any rate, on top of her other losses. CherylW> yeah:( JL> Well, dying is bad too. What an awful way to spend the Holiday. Kaas> Do we know why the list is down? Or just guesses still? Jenn V.> Just guesses, I think JL> Just guess still. Jean> Well, folks, my dogs are pounding on the door, demanding to be let in and fed. Jean> I need to feed me, too! > Jenn V. watches Jean be dogged. :) Jean> So take care--hope the list is back up soon! CherylW> hugs Jean> Bye for now. CherylW> bye Jenn V.> A New Year is a good time to dream. So lets dream of single-copy publis hing and movie offers and suchlike. JL> I need to go to -- my husband is due home and dinner must be produced. Kennet> Take care, Jean! Jenn V.> Take care. JL> Besides I'm starving too. JL> Happy New Year Everyone!!!! *** Jean has left! Kennet> Be well, JL! JL> The Business meeting is adjourned. > Jenn V. waves. *** JL has left! > Jenn V. ends the log. Kaas> Is somebody going to tell me who won awards so I can post it? CherylW> you gonna be on IRC tonight Kaas? > Jenn V. ohs. Yah. Kaas> Yeah Kaas> Are you? CherylW> most definitely! AM every night Kaas> Button? CptButton> kaas> I've gota a complete log. in pieces, but complete. Kaas> Cherri? CherylW> maybe CptButton> yeah, i will be. Kaas> Thanks, button > Gossamer has a log from when she came in. CherylW> great! Kaas> yay!!! Kaas> Anybody else want to join us on IRC for gaming? Kaas> You are more than welcome... Gossamer> I don't have enough brainpower to RP tonight. Sorry. *** Dancer has left! Kennet> Me either, I'm afraid...scattered, and should eat soon. It's grand to me et people though. Kaas> That doesn't stop some people.. heh heh Kaas> Well we won't be starting for another 3 hours.. if you feel like it later, come on over. CherylW> hey!! CherylW> was that a POINTED insult at ALEA! > Kaas looks amazed and innocent Kaas> What? Jenn V.> Ok. Here's the awards list: Jenn V.> Gold Yoyo: Cap Button, for the flyers for the worldcon and suchlike. Yo u, Kaas, for the tshirts and the Atcha hand Jenn V.> Digen award: Leigh Kimmel, for the list and the Apa'zine. Ronnie Bob Wh itaker, for the snailmail list and the scanning. Robin King Nitschke(sp?) for th e webring. tentacled@aol.com, for the IRC gaming. Jenn V.> Silver Yoyo: Mike Giroux, for the CZ online and for Karen's 'puter. All ison McGaw, for practically creating and maintaining Australian S~G fandom. Kaas> Did JL happen to mention what the Golden yoyo actually means/is for? Jenn V.> Um. No. CherylW> oh welll;)...see y'all in a couple of hours, she drawls out in her sout hern accent Jenn V.> And a new award, for technical services: the Techton Award. Me (blush) for the Search Engine, the Strayla Centre chat. CherylW> bye *** CherylW has left! Jenn V.> Gossamer, also for those and for the bulletin boards. And Mike Giroux f or the original CZ chat page. Jenn V.> That's the full set of awards. > Gossamer hugs Jenn lots. Kennet> Closing here :) Be well and safe, all :) Kennet> QUIT Kaas> Great.. thanks.. this will help *** Kennet has left! > Jenn V. notes. Me == Jenn Vesperman, in case you needed it stated. Gossamer == ... Gossamer> Me == Bek Oberin, technically. I'd prefer you just said Gossamer Jenn V.> Um. I'm afraid to say it cvause I can't find out whrre I wrote it and I don't want to misspell. Jenn V.> Oh. Ok. > Gossamer giggles. Kaas> Umm... hopefully I can revive my pooter since the art machine is the one w ith the Awards website on it (gulp) Jenn V.> Oops. Kaas> Ok.. I'll say Gossamer Jenn V.> Rebekah? Gossamer> That's right, Jenn. Kaas> Is this frozen? Gossamer> Nope, just quiet. Gossamer> All the noisy people left *** Kaas has left! Jenn V.> I think I'll crash, guys > Gossamer snugs. Gossamer> Sleep safe Jenn V.> I will. > Jenn V. waves. *** Jenn V. has left! CptButton> I think Cherri is just logging. CptButton> bye Goss. Gossamer> Bye *** Gossamer has left! *** CptButton has left!